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 an alternative? musicbrainz.org

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Gecks



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:09 pm

but i do implement projects for banking databases many times the size and complexity of discogs Smile

(which is what i should be doing now...hah)
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:18 pm

[quote="deejsasqui"]
Gecks wrote:

It seems the question is then, would it be better to lend our efforts at expanding MusicBrainz?
No.
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asylum27

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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:41 am

hmvh wrote:
deejsasqui wrote:
Gecks wrote:

It seems the question is then, would it be better to lend our efforts at expanding MusicBrainz?
No.

as above...more power to the passion of the guy doing that site, but lets start afresh. That was the original intent here, and i don't see hows that intent has changed.

There is massive talent and potential herein.

And something vaguely revolutionary about this that appeals to the old punk in me Smile
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kwulf

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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:19 am

asylum27 wrote:

There is massive talent and potential herein.

And something vaguely revolutionary about this that appeals to the old punk in me Smile

Ha ha, good point! Yeah, there is an old punk in me as well!
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Gecks



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:21 pm

it's guys doing the site. it's an open project.

i would have thought the intent of all this is to find a replacement for discogs, whether that be a new site or an embryonic (hardly! but at least it's possible to influence the development still) project like MBz.

creating a brand new one seems like sour grapes to me, but best of luck all the same. i hope you guys are prepared for the long haul, though - i've been working on MBz for over 4 years.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:38 pm

Gecks wrote:
creating a brand new one seems like sour grapes to me, but best of luck all the same. i hope you guys are prepared for the long haul, though - i've been working on MBz for over 4 years.
Sour grapes is what we're trying to avoid -- make no mistake there.
MBz looks interesting, we can certainly learn from there, and from some of their dev pages (I've seen) it seems they're asking questions (re. aliases/ANVs) that discogs has already quite successfully overcome.

Let me ask you this: What shortcomings must DdB overcome to be better than ogs or MBz -- in your eyes?


Last edited by hmvh on Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gecks



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:04 pm

hmvh wrote:
Gecks wrote:
creating a brand new one seems like sour grapes to me, but best of luck all the same. i hope you guys are prepared for the long haul, though - i've been working on MBz for over 4 years.
Sour grapes is what we're trying to avoid -- make no mistake there.
MBz looks interesting, we can certainly learn from there, and from some of there dev pages (I've seen) it seems they're asking questions (re. aliases/ANVs) that discogs has already quite successfully overcome.

that's because there's a focus change that's happening (last few years). before MBz was 'just' a tagging resource, so ultimately artists were best under the same name unless there were large, clear differences in performance (eg what we would {or at least SHOULD!} call 'aliases' at discogs). everything else as merged in (under MBz 'aliases' system, which aren't really 'aliases' in anything else but a name). in time there will be a full ANV-type system.

(and for the record i'd strongly disagree that discogs has overcome the ANV/alias thing but that's another story!)

musicbrainz main change over the next few years will be to become fully relational. every bit of audio (a 'track') will be a 'work' and all 'releases' will be instances of those. actual credits on tracks won't need to be entered over and over again - there might be a 'CNV' (ish) system to show who did/didn't get credited on a particular release, but as long as the audio stays the same so do the performances/producers. this basic change is actually done and will be live soon, but i'm reticent to say much until i've used it!

discogs relationships are seemingly never going to be sorted. even a releases credit ranges aren't actually related to the tracks yet.

hmvh wrote:

Let me ask you this: What shortcomings must DdB overcome to be better than ogs or MBz -- in your eyes?
[/quote]

for what it's worth:
- fully relational (each credit should only be entered once - the rest is just instanced)
- tagger support (ie, stylised views of the data available alongside the more encyclopaedic 'sleeve dumps')
- (probably required for the above) audio fingerprinting support
- all unique releases indexed
- (probably required for the above) release groups/master release
- custom enquiries
- voting/confirmation system ("a good one" Smile)
- user friendly first, encyclopaedic second (always use common names as the primary index, etc. store the other info, sure, but don't obscure the useful data for the sake of it)
- collection, wantlist
- market place or ASIN support (just for hosting costs if nothing else)
- uploadable scans
- non-dictatorial!
- ...

this is kind of a mixture of what MBz and discogs do already, but i feel MBz has/is doing the 'hard stuff' first, whereas discogs is already backed into a corner by it's 'data first, structure later' policy.
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:09 am

Gecks wrote:
for what it's worth:
- fully relational (each credit should only be entered once - the rest is just instanced)
- tagger support (ie, stylised views of the data available alongside the more encyclopaedic 'sleeve dumps')
- (probably required for the above) audio fingerprinting support
- all unique releases indexed
- (probably required for the above) release groups/master release
- custom enquiries
- voting/confirmation system ("a good one" Smile )
- user friendly first, encyclopaedic second (always use common names as the primary index, etc. store the other info, sure, but don't obscure the useful data for the sake of it)
- collection, wantlist
- market place or ASIN support (just for hosting costs if nothing else)
- uploadable scans
- non-dictatorial!

How do you feel about the bolded bits - how the unique items are indexed, the method of accepting all submissions after x days of no review, and "user friendly first, encyclopedic second"? I think these might be issues ex-oggers would have with MB.
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Gecks



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:51 am

"all unique releases indexed" - at the moment musicbrainz only indexes the same 'album' (or single, or whatever) twice if the tracklist (eg, order, or bonus tracks) or audio (eg remastered) changes. you can record the release details (label, cat#, format, etc) of different same-tracklist releases on the one single release, but this obviously has some drawbacks (can't show tracktitle variants, cover art changes, etc).

the ability to have a quick list of all an artists (eg) studio albums, without cluttering it up with reissues, represses, etc, is good in a way. ultimately MBz will have an equivalent of 'master release' - this - which will hopefully cover both bases.

"voting/confirmation system" - currently all changes go 'live' in time (14 days i think), unless they are either voted through (3 Y votes) sooner, or receive any equal, or 3 more N votes to Y votes. one can also change the 'qualtiy' of a release, so a 'high' quality release requires ANY changes to receive 6 (i think) Y votes. they won't go through automatically.

there's also a group of elected 'autoeditors' who can bypass the vote for certain edits (everything but merges and deletes i think), and can 'approve' (immediately apply) pending edits of other users, if they think they're 100% correct. the equivalent of mods at discogs, basically.

"user friendly first, encyclopaedic second" - this is my personal opinion. some users of MBz want it to be more encyclopaedic, but i think we should have the systems in place first for certain things. eg, i think we should develop an ANV-type system before listing any but the most loaded name variants of artists as separate interlinked artists, otherwise you just fragment the discography for negligible gain. same with 'all unique releases' - that could be done tomorrow, but the way MBz presents its data it would just appear to be needlessly redundant, and everything would get merged back in weeks i would guess.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:31 pm

I'm not belittling or ignoring your post at all, certainly some valid and interesting points brought up but there are two I'd like to highlight right now:

1.
Gecks wrote:
(and for the record i'd strongly disagree that discogs has overcome the ANV/alias thing but that's another story!)
Though not perfect (real name alias vs. groups, anyone?) and lacking PAN management aside, I think alias/ANVs work quite well on ogs.

What is it that you feel is lacking or how could it be done better?

2. Credits and track ranges:
Excellent point, excellent idea: I'm also brainstorming to simplify the credit entry by way of ranges, and then there's the track vs. global credit issue. Add to that a horrible oversight when it comes to the simple question "DdB, please give me a list of all songs written by John Lennon (alone)" that you simply get a list of those tunes - irrespective of who they're performed by and which releases they appear on, sorted alphabetically or chronologically, and without duplicate entries. Then, I'd like to select a given tune, get more info (lyrics could be a little difficult) on that tune, like where it appears and performed by who and who the performing personnel is. You get the idea.

Unfortunately, that'll require FAR more detail than users may be prepared or able to input since I am hardly insane but certainly suggesting track-specific pages / entries. MBz's "fingerprinting" method may be a necessary evil to realise this goal but could prove difficult for non-digital releases such as vinyl, tapes and wax cylinders.
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Gecks



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:08 pm

hmvh wrote:
Though not perfect (real name alias vs. groups, anyone?) and lacking PAN management aside, I think alias/ANVs work quite well on ogs.

What is it that you feel is lacking or how could it be done better?

the system is perfect but the usage is not IMO - http://www.discogs.com/groups/topic/154659#2009397

Quote :

2. Credits and track ranges:
Excellent point, excellent idea: I'm also brainstorming to simplify the credit entry by way of ranges, and then there's the track vs. global credit issue.

at MBz we're moving to the idea that all audio-specific credits need to be applied to the track (even if they affect all tracks in a release) and all release-specific credits (eg, packaging, artwork, compilation producer, that kind of thing) need to be applied to the release.

Quote :

Add to that a horrible oversight when it comes to the simple question "DdB, please give me a list of all songs written by John Lennon (alone)" that you simply get a list of those tunes - irrespective of who they're performed by and which releases they appear on, sorted alphabetically or chronologically, and without duplicate entries. Then, I'd like to select a given tune, get more info (lyrics could be a little difficult) on that tune, like where it appears and performed by who and who the performing personnel is. You get the idea.

Unfortunately, that'll require FAR more detail than users may be prepared or able to input since I am hardly insane but certainly suggesting track-specific pages / entries. MBz's "fingerprinting" method may be a necessary evil to realise this goal but could prove difficult for non-digital releases such as vinyl, tapes and wax cylinders.

the fingerprinting method is mainly for the tagger at MBz. what is going to happen (this is live in test.musicbrainz.org) is that you will be able to marge tracks. if the same piece of audio is released in 2 places (ie, not remastered, the exact same bit of audio), then you merge those tracks to one database entry. the 2 (or more) release they are in now just reference this one track, so all the credits added to that track now show up every time it's instanced.

this might not sit well with discogs users, as you now have no way of showing what credits were given with what release, but perhaps this could be a further layer specific to the release. gets a bit complicated!
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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:10 pm

An interesting bit of discussion on the MB IRC log, where mudcrow asked about non-profit status for us. MB folk discussed the shortcomings of their site, and how it differs from Discogs, and their thoughts on starting from scratch. Nothing terribly in depth, but interesting.

After reading the whole section, the lot on MB noted that discogs comes up short in (surprise) the more recently added genres. It sounds like MB is more of a fun place to hang out, while Discogs became a chore. I'd be interested to chat with MB folk about their ideas for the areas of their own professed shortcomings (poor layout, multi-CD sets are listed as separate CDs).

Personally, the layout is the first hurdle I need to get past. If you can't comprehend the site at first glance, chances are you won't want to delve deeper.
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richard



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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:23 am

deejsasqui wrote:
There's structure, but the site is a fsking eyesore, everything that our fallen site is/was not.

re: MusicBrainz - I like the ability to use CDs for some data input / verification, but I agree that's no bedrock I want to base my Ideal Future DB on.

Thought it was appropriate to let you know that I have made some updates to Music-Whiz.com.

It still needs a lot of content, and there are still lots more features to implement.

Please let me know if you think it is an improvement (or not).
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PostSubject: Re: an alternative? musicbrainz.org   Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:47 pm

Thanks for the note, richard! Working on such a project by yourself can be daunting, and I wish you luck.

I haven't looked through the site in much detail, but you do have some nice features, such as the biography page for bands.

One thing to note: there are a lot of different "end users" for music databases, and most of the people here on DDB are coming from the obsessive collector / historian stand-point, which is probably a niche, versus the general populous of music fans or people who enjoy music. The various database-type sites that exist (and are in the works =) answer to a variety of wants and wishes, and it'd be foolish to try to make one site work for everyone (unless there was some amazing flexibility built into it - music fans won't care about the barcode variations and glitches on the printing of the 3rd edition of some random disco single, while the OCD crowd finds that all critical information).
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