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 Pusha Throwing Some Mud

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pusha



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PostSubject: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:20 am

I think the next couple of days we are going to see a lot of the SC folks throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks. Actually, this might be the easiest way to sort out the common ground between us. Nailing down the points we agree on should be fairly easy, then we can move on to other discussions on more contentious issues.

Of course I am just one voice and here is my mud after combing through a lot of what has been written.

First I don't think we can do a mission statement until we have some agreement on core issues. In no particular order here are things I feel strongly about.

Ratifying the concept of rotating leader ship
Ratifying the concept of a not for profit web site, owned by, built by and run by the Community
Ratifying the concept of transparency in decision making
Ratifying the concept that decisions affecting the project as a whole are voted on by the community, not decided soley by the SC

Establishing a web presence and place holder for DisographyDB.com
Hash out how to accumulate release data, Ogs RSS or API, User Export ???
Voting one person a SC Chairmen, and two folks Vice SC Chairmen, to help keep us on track
Discuss further how to prevent endless topical debates, namely how do ideas "live or die"
Create a three person task force to work on drafting mission statement concepts and ideas


Here are other random ideas I liked plucked from things I've read.

A way to leave personal release notes for items in a users collection
Status bar alert or "help" button for new users having trouble entering submissions
Self sustainable site, fees for commercial use maybe charged to sustain the project
Also, to begin I agree with using the Ogs Mod/Ed/Vote system as a template for our project



There are many other good ideas floating around too, these are just the ones that jumped out at me first.


Last edited by pusha on Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : slight modification in wording; re SC Chairmen)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:27 am

Oh oh ..............

I think it might be a good idea to establish a specific forum for the community to comment on what they read in the SC forum.

It could help keep "issue direct" dialog flowing between the community and SC. After all, we do work for the community and it is their wishes we are here to follow.


Last edited by pusha on Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarification of idea)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:33 am

More mud -Just thinking out loud .

To attain progress beyond just solely working on the bigger issues we are faced with, allow the SC to break into 3 groups. Each of the 3 groups would work on specific "priority" tasks. These groups would function concurrently with each individuals generalized participation on the SC.

Example;

Team 1: Site Guidelines and Protocol
What is a proposed RSG going to consist of? What of Sub Limits, Styles, Aliases ect.

Team 2
: Technical/Coding Issues + Hardware
Labor for coding? Coding language, Servers, web hosting ect

Team 3: Business and Finance
Seed Money, business plan? Legal questions, Marketing, Management and community interaction ect


Last edited by pusha on Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:46 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:05 am

Just a response to these ideas - a lot of good ones here!!

pusha wrote:

First I don't think we can do a mission statement until we have some agreement on core issues. In no particular order here are things I feel strongly about.

I think we can start on a basic mission statement anyhow - we can always alter it later.

One thing I really think we should consider is the idea (it may have been yours? Or quisquilia's?) to form some subcommittees to deal with different aspects.

pusha wrote:

Ratifying the concept of rotating leader ship

Yes! This is one of the central points in my earlier thread.

pusha wrote:
Ratifying the concept of a not for profit web site, owned by, built by and run by the Community

This is in the Mission Statement thread already. I think we should make sure to clarify that this may end up being a moneymaking endeavour, but that all money will be put back into the db.

pusha wrote:
Ratifying the concept of transparency in decision making

Agreed.

pusha wrote:
Ratifying the concept that decisions affecting the project as a whole are voted on by the community, not decided soley by the SC

Agreed again. this is also in the Mission Statement thread.


pusha wrote:
Establishing a web presence and place holder for DisographyDB.com


Not sure I understand...?

pusha wrote:
Voting one person a SC Chairmen, and two folks Vice SC Chairmen, to help keep us on track

Not a bad idea...should we put forth suggestions?

Dmaxx might be a good candidate for Chairman (if he'll do it) because he is already the forum admin...and a good person Smile

And I'd be happy to act in any position asked of me...

pusha wrote:
Create a three person task force to work on drafting mission statement concepts and ideas

See above: subcommittees;)

pusha wrote:
I think it might be a good idea to establish a specific forum for the community to comment on what they read in the SC forum.

I was thinking this myself - a very good and important idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:08 am

pusha wrote:
To attain progress beyond just solely working on the bigger issues we are faced with, allow the SC to break into 3 groups. Each of the 3 groups would work on specific "priority" tasks. These groups would function concurrently with each individuals generalized participation on the SC.

Agreed that we need more focused/centralized subcommittees...

Team 1: Site Guidelines and Protocol
What is a proposed RSG going to consist of? What of Sub Limits, Styles, Aliases ect.


--> I don't think we need to bother with the RSG yet; let's get the db settled before we start to draft the rules;)

However, working on protocol is very important. The structure of the db would be the first committee needed for sure...

I'm probably best suited for this team.

[b]Team 2
: Technical/Coding Issues + Hardware
Labor for coding? Coding language, Servers, web hosting ect

--> Fair enough. I know nothing about this, so I'll leave it to others to decide how important it is to deal with this right away or not...

Team 3: Business and Finance
Seed Money, business plan? Legal questions, Marketing, Management and community interaction ect[/quote]

-->Makes sense. Again, although I have some ideas about, I'm hardly an expert.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:33 am

I will post all my ideas when I have enough time for it - probably tomorrow afternoon.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:10 am

FWIW, I can easily get information about the process/implications of running this as a US nonprofit...my wife is an attorney with quite a bit of nonprofit experience, and has offered to answer any questions I have.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:54 pm

I'll reply to the topics from pusha later (as well as the other SC threads) when I have time to really think things through.

On the idea of non-profit ideas, there have been somethings bandied about. I asked for people to post their non-profit experiences, and pano offered his input:

pano4423_004 wrote:
I'm a lawyer, accountant and financial manager, but I've only worked for profit-making companies.

I can have a look at which is the best country to base the entity, which is the best form the entity might have and, once those two are set, which public funding can be obtained.

I'll ask him if he's had time to find out more.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:17 pm

Who will lead this steering committee group? Is anyone interested in leading this group? What is our common goal? I posted a "vision" thread some days ago and still no "visions" were posted in that thread. Did you miss it? or did I miss the visions?

My "mud" on the wall right now is actually a question!

DO YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH? = Are you actually prepared to do the work needed, spend the time to get somewhere? I'm not talking about "talking" because we all know how to do that. We do it too much allready!!!

My "mud" may not stick but I'm worried that we're too slow as we aren't really making any progress in my opinion. We just don't get anywhere in my opinion even though you may be optimistic and say that we've decided WHO should talk. Perhaps I'm to eager to get this started but I've been a member of this forum since january and it's april now!!!

Why should it be non-profit btw? I don't understand that! If we really want to kick kevins butt then we'll need money, a lot of it! AND FAST! A market place is the first thing we should consider as that is something that will work from day one. That is the ONLY thing that attracts people to Discogs at the moment:

SELLING
BYING

I see no other use at the moment for Discogs. I still use the swedish forum, I confess to that, but it's hardly a reason to log in to Discogs in the long run.

"Mud" ... Let me see some ideas! I'm provoking you again now!

What should the new site be?
Who will create it?
When will it be created?
Who will fund it?
Who will code it?
Who will run it?
Who will work for free?
How long will those people work for free?

That's my "mud"!
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:44 pm

Non-profits don't need to be run on spare change, they can make money and they can employ people. The idea is that non-profits are focused on putting money that comes in back into the foundation / company / group.

What should the new site be?
- detail-oriented, reliable (in data and system fixes/uptime) and flexible
Who will create it?
- coding: a core few (at least in the beginning)
- submission/edits: everyone who signs up
- verification: a core group, supported by basic checks performed when things are submitted
When will it be created?
- soon!
Who will fund it?
- Initially, donated money from those who can, I like the marketplace for the long-run
Who will code it?
- a select few
Who will run it?
- not sure (talk with the coders and tech folk)
Who will work for free?
- all but critical infrastructure people - we need some who will be there to fix servers with things crash
How long will those people work for free?
- as long as they want to - it should be FUN! =)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:01 pm

Quote :
Who will lead this steering committee group? Is anyone interested in leading this group?

I'm with you on this..we have a steering committee but we need a nominal head..at least in the interim. The head should not be a dictator but we need to have at least a one or two person task allocating sub-committee if you will. I'm up for either Dmaxx or deejsasqui.

Thoughts.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:19 pm

With all due respect to the others, I'd nominate deejsasqui as a fine choice for tentative head (secretary of the board) since he's quite adept at collecting loose thoughts and ideas into formulated paragraphs and data sets. He's done well so far, I think.

Whatever it takes, let's make it so.

Right, next item on the agenda: I'm off work the next coupla days so there's plenty of time to read through each and every of the posts in this forum and make plenty of notes about who can do what, who wants what, and who expects what. That's my to-do.

What I have noticed is the lack of a "vision" from "The Eleven" (and yes, me included). We have nothing resembling a mission statement yet, and surely that doesn't take too long to come up with?! And no, a spiteful and avengeful mission this is not!
There's lots of discussion going on in the subforums about ANVs and labels and track IDs. Some good ideas being tossed about but that's detail for the time being.

We've had the time, now we need some results:

I propose each of us eleven starts his own thread (apologies for hijacking pusha's thread for my rant) in this http://discogs.actieforum.com/steering-committee-f18/ forum and jots down his wishes, his wants, his expectations and his vision. Individual replies go there.

We should have something by the end of the week.

Furthermore, what of the possibility of a teleconference? Any chance we could set up a date/time and actually converse with one another, get to know each other a little?

Call me blue-eyed but there are a lot of disillusioned people out there that depend on us to give them a little hope and results, and make no mistake -- it's quite a tall order to beat (management aside) that other site down the road, let alone make some sort of impression that beats out a multitude of similar services.

If we're gonna do this, we're gonna do this right or not at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:24 pm

Stormbringer wrote:
A market place is the first thing we should consider as that is something that will work from day one. That is the ONLY thing that attracts people to Discogs at the moment
Fine. Let them go there. Those aren't the sort of people we want here.

If you want a site that allows you to sell any old shit (unmoderated items may not be put on sale, should we get a marketplace going), then there's always amazon, eBay, Craigslist or... discogs.

There! That's one of my vision points.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:43 pm

I'm also nominating deejsasqui to be the steering committee leader for the same reasons as hmvh mentioned above!

Regarding the marketplace issue I'm just saying that it's an easy way to get som cash. I haven't bought or sold a single item from Discogs so I don't need that feature myself! BUT we'll need money and don't have any myself to donate. If somebody else can fix the money we'll need then I'm totally happy if we don't include a marketplace feature!
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:04 pm

@ hmvh - thanks for offering to compile thoughts and ideas from the forums so far. Could you also update the wiki accordingly? I don't know how much solid time I'll have to work on the forums - quick posts are one thing, but providing well-researched summaries of thoughts takes a while. I'll see if I can work on things tonight or tomorrow night, but no promises.

Re: Mission statement - there's some discussion of that here.

Re: visions - Stormbringer started a visions thread, lazlo_nibble made the idea feature brainstorming thread, and there's blunded1995's what I'd like to see in the new DB thread which I had broken down into sections on the wiki.

We have a lot of thoughts, but not much focus. The wiki is great for focus, and we can remind each-other to stay "on topic" on threads, or create new threads for new ideas, so it's easier to chart our thoughts. I'm honored that three of y'all would like me to try and guide this herd of cats =)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:26 pm

Just a quick at work post from me - but if deejsasqui is interested he surely gets my vote

Dmaxx could be a Vice, maybe Storm as well ?

Btw - I love the angst building in this thread, its time for action and I can feel the bubble and I sense you guys can too.

We are the committee, lets take the willing and move forward as best we can. We can engage the other memebers of the SC as needed with directives. Fuck em' if they are not making the effort to post, the clock is ticking and as my girl Hedi Klum would say "Either your in, or your OUT !"



Deejsasqui
- Pusha is reporting for duty sir !
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 7:36 pm

Come to think of it, I might have some time free time tonight.

Maybe I can do a simple mission statement (I have the Covey Books as well) with the idea
that it can be merged with other work you guys have done.

My mantra is keep it simple - so don't expect an essay. We just need to get crack a lack'n !
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:15 pm

Hmm... three different threads for basicly the same thing isn't really optimal, is it?

I must confess that I didn't even see the "brainstorming" thread yesterday as I was dead tired after a long day at work.

"Brainstorming" is really great if the ones participating actually follows the stated "rules". That thread is pretty new so perhaps we'll see some serious posts soon following the "rules" set up in the first post in that thread? I know that anyone should be able to post anything as it's a brainstorming thread but we also need some structure.

When I chatted with dmaxx a week ago I told him that I would post my complete vision but I just haven't had the time this week. I have it in my head but I'll be posting tiny bits of it when I have the time.

I must tell you about this so that you'll know:

I've been elected by the members of my union to be one of the leaders of it http://www.seko.se/ for the northern part of Stockholm. It's not like I'm running the union but I'm now responsible for 900 members so my free time just shrinked dramaticly compared to when I only was responsible for +100 members as it has been for the last four years or so.

"Working" for a union here in Sweden is not a "real" job unless you're an "ombudsman" (one of very few swedish words that you might have heard just as the word "smörgårdsbord"?)

I'm employed by the swedish Post and they pay my salary even when I work for the union. That may sound strange or even almost unbelieveable for some people that are used to being threatened or even killed in some countries, but that's how great it still is here in Sweden.

Will this affect me so much that I won't be able to participate so much here at discographydb? I honestly don't know yet! I'll still have some free time but not as much as before.

This is also the reason why I haven't replied to all posts that I should have replied to that were posted several days ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:33 pm

Relax, I'll find your posts and your visions.

Only one question, Storm -- something I've never properly understood: You say you'd like to submit/add/record every single item (the uniqueness issue) in your collection in this funky new product or ours. What was it that prevented you from adding it to 'ogs v3 (let alone v4) -- what was lacking, what didn't it support? What's that one item you're always riding on that'll make you happy? Can you point me to that release?

As for cash? Donations upfront. The end. Users shouldn't be expecting a return other than our solemn efforts either. Sorry. If you can't afford it, don't offer... I'm going to start calling things by name now. We'd have to put up with ads as well, in the interim to sustain ourselves. As for actual profit? Fuggetit, unless we go fully commercial, and then we may as well call ourselves "the imitators".

lazlos's thread is a good one. Not enough activity though. The one he started regarding the data/labels etc. found on his Linda Ronstadt CD is also an excellent starting point that is critical for phase II of the plan. Phase I is to get this constitution thing going.

Yes, also a quickie from the office here, I still would like to get feedback, ladies! Teleconference: Yes/No/Chicken/Pointless? Why?
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:47 pm

Stormbringer: congrats!

re: teleconference / chat / whatnot: first let's post time zones and availabilities.

re: vice-whatevers .. do we really need layers of guidance for 11 people? I thought the 11 of us were supposed to pool ideas from the users of this future db, decide things together, then post our thoughts / conclusions for everyone else to discuss / work from / whatnot? And then the idea of one main person for this group of 11 would be to focus our energies, not to decide anything for the 11.

I don't think we need anything more than focus for these efforts. There are a lot of swirling energies and thoughts, but nowhere for them to go. If we had a beta DB today, I think we would have plenty of people to test it out, and fill in the beginnings of our new site.

I'll put thoughts together later, as I really should be focusing on other things than this site for a while =)
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:51 pm

hmvh wrote:
Teleconference: Yes/No/Chicken/Pointless? Why?
No for me.

- We are from around the globe, which means the timezones are too different.
- Not everyone can be online at the same time.
- Saying stuff is cool, but when it's not written down it's not useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:27 pm

deejsasqui wrote:
re: vice-whatevers .. do we really need layers of guidance for 11 people? I thought the 11 of us were supposed to pool ideas from the users of this future db, decide things together, then post our thoughts / conclusions for everyone else to discuss / work from / whatnot? And then the idea of one main person for this group of 11 would be to focus our energies, not to decide anything for the 11.

The SC Chair and Vice Chairs where just an idea to help keep things focused. The old adage of to many chiefs and not enough Indians comes to mind. Also, the VC's were just a way to spread the work load.

That been said its not something I am hell bent on, it was just an idea that came to mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:35 pm

on a foot note - I have steered away from the "vision" topic because I have been pretty removed from the site for a few years now and I don't think have a good enough grasp on all the particulars of the present day train of discoggers thoughts.

I see myself here to do the communities bidding and doing as much as I can by lending my professional experience to the process.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:01 am

dmaxx wrote:
hmvh wrote:
Teleconference: Yes/No/Chicken/Pointless? Why?
No for me.

- We are from around the globe, which means the timezones are too different.
- Not everyone can be online at the same time.
- Saying stuff is cool, but when it's not written down it's not useful.

As said before I'm largely out of circulation until later this week as I'm on business in China (Gunagzhou) and then Hong Kong. That said I should have some time later tonight and will write down my thoughts
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:54 am

hmvh wrote:
Only one question, Storm -- something I've never properly understood: You say you'd like to submit/add/record every single item (the uniqueness issue) in your collection in this funky new product or ours. What was it that prevented you from adding it to 'ogs v3 (let alone v4) -- what was lacking, what didn't it support? What's that one item you're always riding on that'll make you happy? Can you point me to that release?

It's almost 05:00 so this will be short answer but I'll expand and clarify it later!

One of the things that I fought for at Discogs from the very beginning was to be able to submit every item in my collection. What stopped me?

1. First it wasn't allowed as many items were considered to be duplicates. When nik finally allowed all unique releases to be submitted he did that without adding the structure to the submission form that was needed = no new fields!

At first you wouldn't get any notification that somebody altered your submissions or items in your collection but after that was introduced it became opened up for everyone to alter everything into anything without any way of stopping it before the changes went live.

So I never really had the chance to submit anything after all unique releases were allowed.

Some of the new fields that I want in the submission form that nik didn't add:

1. A company field and a role field for companies in the same way we add artist information.

We now write: Producer - Cari Lekebusch

I want it to be: Manufactured By [Sleeve Printed By] - Sib Tryck

If we would treat artists, companies, studios and even drum machines the same way we would save us a lot of problems.

The "role" field tells you what whas done and the other field who/what did it.

2. CNV = a company name variation field

I never understood why we should write the artist names just as listed on the releases but we couldn't list the other data of the release in the same way? I think the idea mjb came up with could be used all over the submission form, but as a minimum I want it to be possible to list all company names as listed on the release but the names should still link to the correct database entry just as we've done with the ANV function.

3. I think we should remove the country field as it is just a guess. I'll copy my posts about this from the editor forum. Basicly I want to use some other fields to replace the country field with:

Marketed in - based on what you fill in in the BIEM-code field.

If you write SABAM in the BIEM-code field the marketed in field will show: Marketed in Belgium.

That might not be true BUT the release says so by having the BIEM-code for that country.

Manufactured in (Made in) - This will show in which country the release was manufactured. It's possible that several countries were involved.

Barcode - The barcode has digits that show which country issued the barcode http://www.ph.tn.tudelft.nl/~frankdj/barcode/barcode.html

4. Format - The Discogs "system" is both unclear and hard to use. I'll explain later but "packaging" must be included and different variations must be easier to tell apart by adding a better format system.

5. Run-out information / inner ring of CD-information - This is something that normal users don't see any use for at all but why not list all that data in specific fields rather than in the release notes where.

6. LC-code field - The LC-code could be used to auto-fill in the correct label(s) in the company name field. Then you just fill in the CNV if different than the standard label name. This would also be a good way of defining what a label is.
We would also need to do a list of all/many LC-codes first of cource but I still think it's a idea that we should try out.


I don't really understand the last part of the question about the release that I'm riding on, that always makes me happy?

If it's a question about my favourite music then:
"Def By Delta Part 2" from http://www.discogs.com/release/109977
"Smoke My Dang-A-Long" from http://www.discogs.com/release/111192

Are two examples of music that sadly too few people even know about.

If it's about a release at Discogs that I'm proud that I submitted then it's http://www.discogs.com/release/773682 Well... I didn't submit it but I added all the information about the artists. I think that is the release in Discogs with the most number of ANV's. The history shows that I worked on it for a long time: http://www.discogs.com/history?release=773682#latest

Hmm... this answer got a bit longer than I expected it to be...
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:16 am

Thanks, Storm -- good post, I like the issues raised and I'm confident we can build something that'll make you (and other users) happy. I'll respond to each of those points individually but would you mind (re-)posting this in your own thread?

I feel it just makes it easier to collect and separate everyone's thoughts if they're in individual threads. This is pusha's thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:19 pm

hmvh wrote:
I'll respond to each of those points individually but would you mind (re-)posting this in your own thread?

I'll do that! I just got carried away and kept writing before I knew that I actually was posting some "visions" :-D
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PostSubject: Re: Pusha Throwing Some Mud   Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:39 pm

deejsasqui wrote:
@ hmvh - thanks for offering to compile thoughts and ideas from the forums so far. Could you also update the wiki accordingly?
Urgh! I bit off more than I could chew right now... still busy rummaging through the forums, looking for ideas and "feeling the vibe".
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