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 My resignation from the steering committee!

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Stormbringer

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PostSubject: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:20 pm

After 90 minutes chatting with some of the SC members I felt that I personally want something completely different with this new site than the rest of the group.

At this point I see no possibility to work towards a common goal as I want something and the rest of the SC-group wants something else.

No hard feelings! No drama! It's just me not matching the rest of the SC-team.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:55 pm

Have you seen and digested my response to your vision?
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:59 pm

Can either of you post the vision + reply here? I missed that bit, and I don't think I'm the only one. Thanks!

And to any and all who were part of round zero (the test phase) of the chat session, thanks for being active. I hereby apologize to all who were present while I popped in and out to buy produce and purchase citrus trees. It was rather unprofessional of me to set something up then not attend in full. I will clearly state any and all time conflicts I have with future live discussion times.


Last edited by deejsasqui on Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pusha



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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:09 pm

Sorry to see you go Storm, maybe you will reconsider.
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dmaxx
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:14 pm

Stormbringer, I'll give you five days to reconsider. If you are determined to leave our team, I'll ask azzurro to join us.

Sad to see you go.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:27 pm

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dmaxx
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:29 pm

^ Did it include the DVD part?

@ Stormbringer: I hope you will remain part of this project!


Last edited by dmaxx on Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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little_alien



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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:58 pm

Don't be a teo, if you don't agree at least give it some time. I'm still not 100% motivated myself, but at least I'm willing to give it a fair chance.
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:41 am

I think we should herein define "a teo" as one who 1. has a great level of control over the site, 2. claims to have an open discussion about developments but 3. goes ahead and changes things by themselves.

With this: no one can be "a teo" at this point, as there is no database. Stormbringer is just stepping back / staying out of the new site developments, as they do not meet his ideals. This is fine and good, and anyone can do the same should they feel the site will not meet their ideals and they cannot accept anything but their vision.

Stormbringer: (I'm pretty sure) you were the one who brought me into Discogs as a mod, and for that I thank you. I don't mean "I don't want you on this new site," and I don't want to exclude anyone, but I don't want to expand the idea of the site just to include anyone who wants to be involved with a new database where Discogs didn't fit their exact wishes.

I imagine most people will make some compromises on this site. Everyone has their ideal for the new site, but unless your ideal can bend, I don't think we can include all elements of all ideals. Some people wish the site were electronic-only, others would prefer to keep the focus on physical items. Someone mentioned we should start with vinyl only.

The point is, we all have to give something to get this working. Maybe the problem is that the implementation of the idea isn't realistic for the beginnings of the site. Maybe the idea clashes with another idea.

I've rambled, and possibly digressed from Stormbringer's post (but it was short, and I'm a bit drunk at the moment, so I might have gotten distracted =) I don't want to lose anyone from this project, especially when they have a lot of dedication to making the new project a reality. With all that, I'll stop there.
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Stormbringer

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:49 am

My original post was short so I'll clarify why I think I can't be a member of the SC.

1. I don't think the site should be limited to only listing audio releases. Why do Discogs again?

2. I don't think the new site should be based on flawed imported Discogs data even if the data is checked again.

3. I want the site to be a community too. I want more than just a forum and a profile page.

4. I don't think it should be non-profit. The income should be divided between the users/submitters/"workers"

If I correctly interpreted the visions the other SC-members have then I'm alone wanting those four things above.

Doing Discogs V2 + democracy is something "you" don't need me to help you with. Discogs V2 has already been done and I'm sure you'll be able to work out the democracy bit by yourself.

This may look like I'm a little kid that starts crying and runs home taking the toys with me just because the other kids don't want to play with me :-D

I'm not angry! I've just realized that my visions are something completely different than what the rest of th SC wants. Feel free to replace me because I won't change my mind about this project unless the project changes direction.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:41 pm

Stormbringer wrote:
1. I don't think the site should be limited to only listing audio releases. Why do Discogs again?
I thought that's what we wanted to do... like discogs, just better?

Of course, the definition of "better" hinges entirely on what people (users) want out of it.

Stormbringer wrote:
2. I don't think the new site should be based on flawed imported Discogs data even if the data is checked again.
With all due respect, the ability for people to import their data, then checking it before submitting it should be available for those who wish to do so. Make no mistake, if there's the chance of flawed data (a few mistakes will probably slip through, we'll have to realise that) then I would never consider importing it.
Can't find that post of mine now but I think I was very clear on accuracy when blind imports from elsewhere (fan sites, even amazon!) were suggested.

You're welcome to (re-)add your collection manually, if you'd prefer that?

Stormbringer wrote:

3. I want the site to be a community too. I want more than just a forum and a profile page.
What you're suggesting is something that's a combination of discogs, yahoo, myspace, facebook, ebay, amazon, del.ico.us, a moderated wikipedia, rateyourmusic -- all rolled into one. That's a pretty tall order.

Could you perhaps expand on what more you'd like besides a flashy user profile with stats and lists of favourites?

Stormbringer wrote:

4. I don't think it should be non-profit. The income should be divided between the users/submitters/"workers"
You want a commercial site?

Hey, I'm a greedy fucker but this business plan of yours is not one to bring in much cash.
Additionally, why restrict any gains to the "select few" mods only? You're suggesting something that means as much as mods getting paid a salary.

Stormbringer wrote:
If I correctly interpreted the visions the other SC-members have then I'm alone wanting those four things above.
Forgive me if I'm the first to respond and being so kurt -- but some of the visions you had were a little unrealistic, and we're not here to act out some sort of vendetta.

Stormbringer wrote:
This may look like I'm a little kid that starts crying and runs home taking the toys with me just because the other kids don't want to play with me :-D
You're still welcome to the playground. Just don't charge us to play with your toys and expect to play with ours for free.
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hmvh

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:14 pm

dmaxx wrote:
^ Did it include the DVD part?
Storm, that's a phenomenal policy shift. By definition, this is a DiscographyDB -- ergo: audio recordings of any kind (within specs). If you'd like to include your movie/DVD/VHS collection as well you're opening up a huge can of worms, and personally, I'm not entirely against it. Some folks have suggested adding their comics and books... even the magazines that their cover-mounted CD and flexis came with.

Again, that's a monstrous change in site and project philosophy.

If we'd go that route (and let's face it, we are creating a framework that can and should support books and movies), then we'd may as well go the whole route and include ALL media carriers:

Audio recordings (as we know)
Movies? DVD, Super-8, VHS, Beta (but not the kid's last birthday party)
TV series? DVD, VHS, Beta (commercial, nothing home-recorded)

Other than being able to create "collections", how would this be different than imdb? In amazon you can create all sorts of lists and review stuff as well. No doubt there are other sites/databases for books (sorry, can't name any) as well that would allow those features?

Books? (with links to Barnes & Noble, WH Smith and CNA?)
Magazines? GQ, Playboy, Cosmo, Farmer's Weekly?
Newspapers? Periodicals? Posters?
Comics? Superman, 2000AD, Clever & Smart?
Media includes games: All your Playstation games, and PC games, and Atari cartridges?

A line's gotta get drawn somewhere although I'll be the first to admit that some items do cross a few lines.

Stormbringer wrote:
It's just me not matching the rest of the SC-team.
Agreed, this was seven people talking very haphazardly with not much of a direction, let alone focus. The first 2 hours did not go very well and weren't particularly fruitful.

hmvh wrote:
I thought that's what we wanted to do... like discogs, just better?
Of course, the definition of "better" hinges entirely on what people (users) want out of it.
And, this must be said: there have been few real visions and wishes posted thus far.

People tend to talk a lot, have wishes, make demands, have expectations -- but still need leadership.
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Stormbringer

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:18 pm

hmvh wrote:
Again, that's a monstrous change in site and project philosophy.

I agree that it's something completely different than what Discogs is but the main reason that I can't be in the SC is that I actually don't see any problem to do something more than Discogs is doing right now and limiting the new site to be just a copy of Discogs already at this point is wrong in my opinion.

I don't think it's possible to "compete" with Discogs if we only offers "Discogs"!

The forum got +300 members but most are just waiting for an alternative to Discogs. If the alternative IS "Discogs" then what is the point in starting a new site that is just "Discogs" with perhaps a little better data integrity and some democracy? I personally don't think that is enough.

I know that in society there are several companies that do pretty much the same thing and then you let the consumers decide which company does "the thing that the company does" the best.

ARE YOU READY TO TAKE ON DISCOGS WITH A SIMILAR "PRODUCT"?

I'll use the new site if it's going to be better than Discogs. If it's the same thing I'll use neither as Discogs does not fulfill my needs as a collector.

Please don't focus any more energy on me now!!! I've said that I resigned because I want something different than the rest of the SC members.
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Kergillian

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:05 am

The whole point is that people were happy with Discogs before they fucked it up.

The whole point is that we want to be able to take the same model we had and improve on it with better structure, better data security, better user interface, better community and community-site relationships

The whole point is to make sure we have a database that doesn't get fucked over and ruined again

I don't want to 'compete' with Discogs. I don't feel the need for more users, more money, more business. I just want a strong database that prides itself on community and reliability, where I can gather and store info without worrying about it getting ruined by monkeys and morons.
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quisquilia



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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:36 pm

Bye, storm.

Who will be his replacement? Azzurro?
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:11 pm

1. I don't think the site should be limited to only listing audio releases. Why do Discogs again?

There are already 3 major "discogs" type sites - Discogs, MusicBrainz and RateYourMusic. Discogs we know, MB is growing towards Discogs and has a solid backing (that now includes connections to BBC!) and RYM is the little brother of these two, the most social of the lot. That's three sites going on strong, all with their own focuses, strengths and weaknesses. I think we can step in as the "open and verified database," focusing on detail and accuracy, and we'd do well. After all, there are over 300 people here who first thought Discogs was doing something right, but now want something new. Maybe Discogs will become another Gemm or Musicstack, but retaining more info on items that aren't currently for sale.

I think there might well be two branches to the development of DdB - the open-source database structure, which others can take and tweak, and the data itself, which can also be utilized elsewhere. With that, someone could alter the database structure to support more / different media. But as it is, to include more media would require a rather major rethinking of how we'll display data. We can't just patch in movies into the Artist - Title format. At that point, we're sounding like a verified Media Wiki, which sounds watered down to me. Yes, it would be interesting to be able to catalog the books, movies, comics and designer chairs made by artists and people involved in the music industry, but those are things for artist profiles for now.

2. I don't think the new site should be based on flawed imported Discogs data even if the data is checked again.

I agree with hmvh - the importing option would be to simplify stage 1 of data entry - supplying the raw data. Think of it like OCR datagrabbing, without any formatting. You need to make sure all the raw data is formatted correctly, and that the spelling matches up. It's not an effort to copy + paste Discogs v4 data into DDB v1.

3. I want the site to be a community too. I want more than just a forum and a profile page.

I think it would be interesting if we could connect with Flock, "a web browser that specializes in providing social networking features built into its interface" (from the wiki page on Flock). I'm not really sure how it all works, and I haven't even downloaded the browser, because I'm not a particularly social person. Maybe someone else can provide their input on the browser.

4. I don't think it should be non-profit. The income should be divided between the users/submitters/"workers"

This is a sticky one - once we get into profit distribution, we have to deal with how we distribute the profits, and how hard we look for more profits. Being a non-profit makes that a lot more simple - pay people for their work (for coding, administration) and fold the profits into the site for improved and additional function.

Those are my thoughts on the topics. Good things to think about, but I don't want to head towards most of these, sorry.
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dmaxx
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:17 pm

Stormbringer is now no longer officially in the SC. A big welcome goes to azzurro, the new member.
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:32 pm

While I'm still sad that Stormbringer has stepped back / down / aside, a big Welcome to azzurro!
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asylum27

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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:53 am

Welcome azzurro, you were on my original list of potential SC members anyway, so I'm pleased.
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:15 am

1. I don't think the site should be limited to only listing audio releases. Why do Discogs again?

I was very happy with Discogs pre the unravelling of the submission limits (I'm not sure if that was V.3 or V3.5 or whatever, I can't keep up) but I think the concept of fixing what was broken using a starting point is sound. But I don't agree with fucking with the basic concept this early on. DVDs are another whole ball game. It may be that later there is scope for this but lets walk before we can run. This is primarily an audio db concept. So I disagree.

2. I don't think the new site should be based on flawed imported Discogs data even if the data is checked again.

It gives a starting point but we need to be very careful and I'd only want barebones importation. And nothing is automatically Y voted in...all pending.

3. I want the site to be a community too. I want more than just a forum and a profile page.

Agreed...lets look at that slowly though.


4. I don't think it should be non-profit. The income should be divided between the users/submitters/"workers"

A huge can of worms..how do you control administer that. I fundamentally disagree and think that such a concept can only lead to disaster and potentially lawsuits etc. A nightmare scenario in the making
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little_alien



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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:08 am

Just saw here http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/162276 that Storm's ideas are already real. No use in copying that site is there?

http://www.kollecta.com/
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deejsasqui
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PostSubject: Re: My resignation from the steering committee!   Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:34 am

re: kollecta - basic info, because you'd either have to have a very detailed site that could be very hard to submit. This guy would have been a champ =)
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