[19:57:53] @ pusha : Q - to start with we are talking about an interface
[19:57:57] @ little_alien : well at least 2 people seem to agree Razz
[19:58:10] @ pusha : for your existing xml export
[19:58:51] @ pusha : most Ogs users can not submit let alone code anything
[19:58:52] @ little_alien : too bad lazlo isn't here to explain his statement further
[19:59:03] @ quisquilia : hmm, too much stuff to read in 5 min - will do tomorrow
[19:59:06] @ pusha : so if we provide an alternive we have an opportunity
[19:59:15] @ little_alien : didn't catch it in the forums though.. haven't been up to date with everything unfortunately
[19:59:34] @ quisquilia : will go see kreuz & bili-rubin now / bye
[19:59:44] @ pusha : all right anyways - so how to work around that problem with the data
[19:59:46] @ little_alien : bye
[19:59:48] @ dmaxx : ok bye
[19:59:52] @ pusha : bye
[19:59:56] @ pusha : I have an idea
[20:00:06] @ pusha : the export would be time stamped no ?
[20:00:09] @ hmvh : Yes, it is. And I think it says everything it needs to say.
[20:00:14] quisquilia is Disconnected on Sat 12 Apr 2008 - 20:00
[20:00:21] @ pusha : so if a later time stamp of the same release is imported
[20:00:24] @ pusha : it gets regjected
[20:00:28] @ little_alien : you guys know what the bad thing is? I can still live with v4, my collection hasn't been messed up yet ...
[20:00:37] @ pusha : lol
[20:00:56] @ little_alien : ok, so I'm not a mod any more
[20:01:02] @ dmaxx : lol
[20:01:08] @ little_alien : but that has never been my core business at discogs
[20:01:08] @ dmaxx : that will change
[20:01:17] @ dmaxx : l_a, it will change
[20:01:27] @ hmvh : Let me get this straight? You want to build a haven for your XML dumps?
[20:01:32] @ dmaxx : the floodgates have just been opened
[20:01:36] @ hmvh : Where's Storm?
[20:01:48] @ dmaxx : gone
[20:01:52] @ pusha : he took his ball and went home I think
[20:02:12] @ pusha : hm only as a starting point
[20:02:21] @ pusha : we are desperate to get something happening here
[20:02:28] @ pusha : this could be simple
[20:02:57] @ hmvh : I'm listening.
[20:03:02] @ pusha : and a way to let people know there will be a full alternitive
[20:03:09] @ pusha : down the road
[20:03:46] @ pusha : the majority of users
[20:03:52] @ pusha : couldnt do this on their own
[20:04:00] @ pusha : so it has value in that regard
[20:04:25] @ pusha : and it gives us some breathing room to work on a clearer "vision" for the entire project
[20:04:35] @ pusha : I mean we can have the best plan in two releases
[20:04:46] @ pusha : best plan in two *years*
[20:04:53] @ pusha : but no one will be looking then
[20:05:09] @ pusha : here is my crystalized mission statement - released into obscurity
[20:05:18] @ pusha : so what do you do ?
[20:05:27] @ pusha : we scrape the whole idea ?
[20:05:39] @ pusha : or start with something attainable that makes sense?
[20:05:53] @ pusha : and has actaul value
[20:06:50] @ dmaxx : pusha: so you mean we let ppl add their xml's
[20:06:59] @ dmaxx : but not in the real DB?
[20:07:04] @ dmaxx : only visible for themselves
[20:07:14] @ pusha : correct
[20:07:21] @ pusha : at least to start
[20:07:24] @ hmvh : And then?
[20:07:57] @ pusha : maybe find a way to use the xmls as a foundation for phase II of the project
[20:08:02] @ dmaxx : If it's not in the real DB I don't see what could be wrong with it
[20:08:12] @ dmaxx : But only if the most experienced users are allowed to do this
[20:08:37] @ pusha : brb
[20:08:41] @ dmaxx : k
[20:09:22] @ little_alien : pff can't find the topic of that guy that has already made a collection browsing tool that accepts discogs xml
[20:09:51] @ dmaxx : you mean discogre?
[20:10:25] @ hmvh : Then all we've got is a snapshot of some old discogs data? Some people's worth? So?
[20:10:26] @ little_alien : no
[20:10:45] @ little_alien : it was posted in the discogs forums
[20:11:36] @ dmaxx : oh
[20:11:48] @ pusha : back
[20:12:08] @ dmaxx : wb
[20:12:16] @ pusha : ty
[20:12:39] @ pusha : I think the worth is it is the begining of an alterternitive
[20:12:50] @ pusha : by the community for the community
[20:13:10] @ little_alien : found it
[20:13:12] @ little_alien : http://dce.tripz.ch/
[20:13:12] @ pusha : We saw that other post - others sites are already lining up to do something simular
[20:13:25] @ little_alien : http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/152370
[20:13:33] @ pusha : our angle is, we are Oggers, not jonny come latelys
[20:13:45] @ pusha : looking
[20:15:09] @ little_alien : still, that site is a bit amateur
[20:15:15] @ pusha : right
[20:15:24] @ pusha : the idea is the same
[20:15:31] @ pusha : or simular
[20:15:45] @ pusha : and you throw the combined efforts of everyone
[20:15:56] @ pusha : and maybe you got something like that but on steriods
[20:16:34] @ little_alien : but you see how many people took the time to upload their collection
[20:16:51] @ little_alien : a stunning 6 people
[20:17:50] @ pusha : that doesnt discourage me to much
[20:18:10] @ pusha : we have 300 here
[20:18:24] @ pusha : of which maybe you would get 10%
[20:18:32] @ pusha : its not a bad starting point
[20:18:49] @ pusha : the word of mouth is what will make it grow
[20:19:08] @ pusha : people think of a discogs alterntivive and say "show me"
[20:19:27] @ pusha : so the best plan in the world
[20:19:34] @ pusha : in my view, will go no where
[20:19:47] @ pusha : with out the "show me" factor
[20:20:16] @ pusha : and the window for that gets smaller each day
[20:20:52] @ little_alien : brb
[20:21:22] @ pusha : k
[20:21:29] @ dmaxx : pusha: i think we have time enough atm
[20:21:40] @ dmaxx : there's no alternative in sight
[20:21:45] @ hmvh : Sorry, it's a useless starting point.
[20:21:46] @ dmaxx : Discogs will remain fucked up
[20:21:58] @ dmaxx : So we better take our time
[20:22:09] @ dmaxx : And do it good
[20:22:17] @ hmvh : It still relies on ogs data and we're not getting people to come here instead of there!
[20:22:44] @ pusha : and your idea is ?
[20:22:58] @ dmaxx : Starting from scratch with experienced ppl
[20:23:20] @ hmvh : Something brand new, bigger, better, faster, more!
[20:23:33] @ pusha : lol
[20:23:40] @ hmvh : ...and with experienced people, which we DO have!
[20:23:58] @ pusha : well I agree with that
[20:24:13] @ pusha : but I have yet to see just how we are going to bridge that gap
[20:24:28] @ hmvh : I'm sorry, but the last 2.5hrs were a waste of time.
[20:24:30] @ pusha : granted this is our first discussion
[20:25:09] @ hmvh : 4/11 have held out.
[20:25:14] @ dmaxx : We have time to bridge the gap, just make sure the added data quality is above Discogs' level
[20:25:29] @ dmaxx : Started with 7, now with 4
[20:25:38] @ hmvh : You know what the joke is?
[20:26:02] @ pusha : a negative attitude ?
[20:26:29] @ hmvh : I've got big ideas. If you think Storm's got expectations, you haven't see mine.
[20:26:47] @ hmvh : They're not utopian either, they're quite realistic.
[20:27:04] little_alien is still trying to decide on which belgian beer to choose...
[20:27:08] @ pusha : lets hear em
[20:27:08] @ hmvh : ...and part of the plan WAS to import ogs data when we're ready.
[20:27:28] @ hmvh : But we're not ready yet. And that ogs data has to be guarded.
[20:27:54] @ dmaxx : hmvh: what are your expectations,
[20:28:04] @ pusha : and your ideas
[20:28:04] @ hmvh : ...then converted and uploaded. Some of it even "bypassing" the modding system in the interim to get the first batch of data -
[20:28:09] @ hmvh : by selected people in.
[20:28:45] @ hmvh : Then we've got some 10% of all that was in ogs. People can see then new features we're adding...
[20:29:03] @ hmvh : ...that have been lacking and will all swarm over.
[20:29:28] @ dmaxx : so far still agreeing
[20:29:30] @ hmvh : They'd be welcome to transfer their collections across...
[20:29:52] @ hmvh : ...but now they'd have to go through the regular modding process.
[20:30:10] little_alien is back
[20:30:22] @ hmvh : Someday, of course, the upload facility will be turned off and we're back to where...
[20:30:22] @ pusha : I'll buy
[20:30:44] @ little_alien : for those that care, the choice was Duchesse de Bourgogne
[20:30:44] @ pusha : how is it going to get built
[20:30:45] @ hmvh : v2/v3 would have been if things didn't turn out the way they did.
[20:30:54] @ pusha : lol @ LA
[20:31:30] @ little_alien : very fruity, I'm pleasantly surprised
[20:31:37] @ pusha : lol
[20:31:40] @ little_alien : anyhow, back on topic
[20:32:27] @ hmvh : Further above I blurted on about a "mission statement". Not for the SC but the "service"...
[20:32:47] @ pusha : yes
[20:32:48] @ hmvh : ...as a whole. We want users, everyone's welcome, blablabla.
[20:33:22] @ hmvh : Then we decide: AUDIO releases. Which are eligible. Movies? No.
[20:33:40] @ hmvh : DVD-A is audio, so yes. Similar criteria.
[20:34:11] @ hmvh : Then: What to capture of each release, each piece of plastic, aluminium, wax,, PVC, or vinyl?
[20:34:33] @ hmvh : Define parameters: What IS a release. What makes this release different from the otehr that has the same title?
[20:34:54] @ dmaxx : Yeah
[20:35:05] @ dmaxx : We need to discuss those things seperate
[20:35:12] @ hmvh : Define label? Why this label, why not that label? Company? List everything?
[20:35:28] @ dmaxx : Maybe using seperate SCs to get to consesusses
[20:35:33] @ hmvh : Yes, that's seperate stuff, that's detail... dammit, I know that!
[20:35:47] @ pusha : you've got great ideas
[20:36:22] @ hmvh : Master Release? You think MBz's cool? Bah! Me wants MASTER TRACK releases!
[20:36:35] @ little_alien : master track?
[20:37:10] @ hmvh : Writers are treated differently to "artists" as we know them so that we can extract "individual" song info, then show where that song appears, what versions of it exist...
[20:37:41] @ hmvh : ...and where those versions are available. Hell, maybe even show the lyrics (legal issues aside), who covered...
[20:37:53] @ little_alien : oh... personally I'm more release- than track oriented
[20:38:00] @ hmvh : each particular song. Why not [click here] to hear it?
[20:38:32] @ hmvh : Why is one release more interesting than the other? Because of the tracks on it? Who are..
[20:38:34] @ little_alien : go to that musicbrainz site?
[20:38:57] @ hmvh : those tracks by? Artists? Who wrote those tracks... "writers".
[20:39:07] @ hmvh : I want to eat brains for dinner.
[20:39:33] @ hmvh : Guys! The data is THERE! All we have to do is present it properly.
[20:39:59] @ hmvh : Nothing I'm proposing is so compliacted for the average ogger to submit, really.
[20:40:15] @ hmvh : too complicated.
[20:40:42] @ pusha : do you propose starting with fresh data
[20:40:46] @ pusha : or using exisiting ?
[20:40:57] @ hmvh : No.
[20:41:12] @ hmvh : Existing data is fine, as long as it's accurate.
[20:41:33] @ little_alien : in the years I have been on discogs my experience has been that even discogs v2 is too difficult for ~60% of the users
[20:41:44] @ hmvh : The data can remain but it needs a new home.
[20:41:49] @ little_alien : let alone things like ANV master release etc
[20:41:50] @ pusha : so how do we get our hands on the exisitng data
[20:41:56] @ little_alien : oh wait
[20:41:59] @ dmaxx : l_a: then those users should not submit at our site
[20:42:09] @ little_alien : this is supposed to be a positive discussion Wink
[20:42:10] @ hmvh : granted, 60% of those users shouldn't be listening to music or breathing either.
[20:42:11] @ dmaxx : if we must put users aside to guaratee quality, than be it
[20:42:33] @ pusha : hmvh
[20:42:40] @ little_alien : not submitting at our site? well I don't want to go that far
[20:42:41] @ hmvh : ...but a few basic checks will shape the data into a format that we can use.
[20:42:46] @ pusha : in five bullet points tell me the order of exectution
[20:42:51] @ little_alien : they have to be willing to learn though
[20:43:08] @ hmvh : ...and please, there's no such thing as "as on release".
[20:43:32] @ hmvh : Track 0001 becomes track A, "produced by" become "producer"...
[20:43:40] @ hmvh : we've been shaping data for years.
[20:43:59] @ hmvh : Five points? One moment.
[20:45:13] @ little_alien : to make one thing clear, I have no desire to help with a database like musicbrainz which is track based
[20:45:30] @ little_alien : none whatsoever
[20:46:32] @ hmvh : Our db will be release based, relax. It so happens to include that info as well, we've just never exploited it properly.
[20:46:33] @ little_alien : not attacking anyone here, we're all allowed to our preference
[20:47:16] @ little_alien : well I admire your faith in the submitters
[20:47:22] @ hmvh : Give me a few minutes, you'll get your five points shortly.
[20:48:02] @ pusha : k
[20:48:19] @ little_alien : ok
[20:48:43] @ hmvh : Ergh? You wanna see my old Y/N vote ratio? Coupla minutes, please.
[20:49:17] @ pusha : take your time
[20:51:13] @ dmaxx : .
[20:52:43] @ pusha : fuck it I think we should go back to electronic music only
[20:52:58] @ little_alien : Hmm Storm's message in the DC forum...
[20:53:00] @ pusha : just kidding ..............................
[20:53:09] @ little_alien : SC forum
[20:53:32] @ pusha : not surprised
[20:54:08] @ pusha : it was clear he had an agenda from the beging
[20:54:13] @ little_alien : can anybody tell me in short what his stance was then?
[20:54:15] @ pusha : no harm no foul
[20:54:22] @ pusha : my way or the highway
[20:54:25] @ little_alien : and i mean in short Wink
[20:54:33] @ pusha : that was it
[20:54:34] @ little_alien : that's short
[20:54:38] @ pusha : my way or the highway
[20:54:41] @ pusha : yeah
[20:54:52] @ little_alien : well, i have to admit I'm like that too...
[20:55:02] @ pusha : we all can be .........
[20:55:11] @ pusha : but at the same time this task is hard enough
[20:55:14] @ little_alien : but if someone has a good idea I'll be the first to support it
[20:55:27] @ pusha : right
[20:55:40] @ little_alien : strange, as we all have a common background
[20:55:43] @ little_alien : discogs
[20:55:46] @ pusha : this SC thing is a giant exercise in compromise
[20:55:53] @ pusha : its funny
[20:55:53] @ little_alien : we all liked that site one way or the other
[20:56:07] @ pusha : everyone wants to say Kevin is a fuck for doing what he did with V4
[20:56:21] @ pusha : and here we have people doing the same
[20:56:32] @ pusha : wanting it only their way
[20:56:41] @ pusha : its all good we are all human
[20:56:46] @ little_alien : I din't know it was that bad...
[20:56:46] @ pusha : I just enjoy the irony
[20:56:53] @ dmaxx : now Storm is gone, should we add azzurro?
[20:56:56] @ dmaxx : to the SC
[20:56:57] @ pusha : yes
[20:57:17] @ little_alien : he said he was going to do some heavy drinking, perhaps he already had a couple of pints too many?
[20:57:17] @ dmaxx : he has the most votes from the three who didn't make it
[20:57:43] @ dmaxx : will give Storm some time to think first
[20:57:53] @ dmaxx : and if he doesn't change his mind, do the switch
[20:57:53] @ pusha : k
[20:58:52] @ pusha : and Dee he set this whole thing up