SC chatsession 8: 2008-06-22

Times are CET+1

[15:56:23] @ ultra_ambient : 20
[16:07:13] @ ultra_ambient : 21
[16:10:58] corne_mo has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:10
[16:11:10] corne_mo : 4 oçlock chattime ?
[16:11:11] quisquilia has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:11
[16:11:29] @ quisquilia : hi
[16:11:36] corne_mo : hi
[16:12:19] @ quisquilia : am currently reading up yesterday's session
[16:13:27] corne_mo : 've done that yesterday
[16:13:37] corne_mo : to be honest it was the first time I completely read the transcript
[16:18:41] @ quisquilia : ok, almost thru
[16:20:43] dmaxx has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:20
[16:20:47] @ dmaxx : Hi all
[16:20:54] @ quisquilia : hei
[16:20:58] @ dmaxx : Sorry I'm a bit later as foreseen
[16:21:11] corne_mo : hi dmaxx
[16:21:32] @ quisquilia : no prob
[16:21:32] @ dmaxx : I'll make sure nothing of this session get's lost
[16:22:10] @ quisquilia : I've read the protocol of yesterday's chat now
[16:22:20] @ dmaxx : Ok
[16:22:27] ultra_ambient has been disconnected the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:22 (session timeout)
[16:22:30] @ dmaxx : Any thoughts about it?
[16:22:32] @ quisquilia : Agree the lack of energy on part of the SC, SSCs & general DDB
[16:22:39] ultra_ambient has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:22
[16:22:53] @ ultra_ambient : 'bout time you guys showed up
[16:22:55] @ quisquilia : Agree an "open group" might be a better approach
[16:23:00] @ ultra_ambient : I was about to go to bed
[16:23:01] @ dmaxx : y
[16:23:44] @ dmaxx : what time is it over there?
[16:23:44] @ quisquilia : Really consider the lack of coders a problem
[16:24:16] @ dmaxx : True
[16:24:20] @ ultra_ambient : 12:25am
[16:24:23] corne_mo : I htink it's easier to find coders when you have a good view of what you want to have coded
[16:24:28] @ dmaxx : But I think we will be able to attract more with a good plan
[16:24:34] @ ultra_ambient : Gotta get up at 7:30 for work
[16:24:41] @ dmaxx : Oh ok
[16:24:53] @ quisquilia : corne & dmaxx are twin minds ;-)
[16:24:59] @ ultra_ambient : Deej was working on finding some coders
[16:25:21] corne_mo : but what I miss most is some sort of structure/organisation and planning/timeline
[16:25:30] @ quisquilia : I was contacting people from my old uni's computer lab
[16:25:38] @ dmaxx : I've started a tasklist
[16:25:44] @ dmaxx : Doesn't have a timeline though
[16:25:47] @ quisquilia : unfortunately to no avail
[16:26:02] @ dmaxx : Thanks for trying
[16:26:07] @ ultra_ambient : We can't make a timeline if no one is here to work on it
[16:26:16] corne_mo : I think it's best if we first concentrate on what we can do so we can make a solid plan
[16:26:42] @ dmaxx : Ageed with corne_mo
[16:27:01] @ dmaxx : I'm willing to do the entire RSGs but we need the allowed data and fields to be finished first
[16:27:02] corne_mo : @U_A: Strange though, as there were some people saying they could do something
[16:27:24] corne_mo : If i'm not mistaken lazlo_nibble could help with legal, and Masakari with page layout
[16:27:41] @ dmaxx : Masakari has done some nice things so far
[16:27:46] @ quisquilia : Lazlo is ativ again?
[16:27:52] @ ultra_ambient : I know I said I could do some page building but things at work lately have been hellish
[16:27:55] @ quisquilia : ativ = active
[16:28:03] @ ultra_ambient : Hopefully this week will be quieter
[16:28:15] @ dmaxx : Don't know about lazlo
[16:28:17] corne_mo : @U_A: That's why we should plan only small tasks
[16:28:36] corne_mo : @guis: haven't heard from lazlo. Don't know if he's still interested
[16:28:38] hmvh has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:28
[16:28:47] corne_mo : Let me give an example:
[16:28:54] Masakari has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:28
[16:29:00] @ hmvh : Hi guys... just came in after plucking strawberries!
[16:29:01] corne_mo : we have to sort out legal problems
[16:29:02] @ quisquilia : I'll be honest... ATM all my motivation for online discographies runs at a 3 yrs low
[16:29:25] corne_mo : so let's first start with making a list of problems we can come across, like images with sexual content etc
[16:29:27] Masakari : Hi all
[16:29:29] @ dmaxx : Hi hmvh, Masakari
[16:29:45] @ quisquilia : Hi M & H
[16:29:46] @ ultra_ambient : Welcome guys
[16:29:58] @ dmaxx : Yes, let's set priorities
[16:30:01] @ dmaxx : and start from there
[16:30:04] corne_mo : if someone volunteers for that you can say the list will be available within 2 weeks
[16:30:05] @ quisquilia : ok
[16:30:25] corne_mo : that way you still have some timeline but in pieces you can work with
[16:30:56] corne_mo : I must agree we can't put a timeline on the complete project but as it's working now nobody has to do anything cause there is no timeline set, not even for minor jobs
[16:31:04] @ dmaxx : I have three months vacation, of which I'll work a month
[16:31:09] @ dmaxx : So plenty of time to put into DDB
[16:31:25] corne_mo : btw: hi hmvh and masakari
[16:31:42] @ ultra_ambient : At the moment the effort can be put into getting things on paper
[16:31:49] @ ultra_ambient : we can do that kind of thing without coders
[16:32:00] @ dmaxx : Yep
[16:32:12] @ ultra_ambient : Like all the details on what we want to end up with
[16:32:23] @ dmaxx : I'm not sure about putting deadlines etc, if we have a core group time shouldn't be a factor
[16:32:35] corne_mo : but firstly you guys have to decide whether or not to continue with the (S)SC system i think
[16:32:38] @ ultra_ambient : Then defining the steps needed to get there
[16:32:42] @ dmaxx : I think the priority of tasks is more important
[16:32:44] @ quisquilia : I have little time and due to work stress much difficulty to focus on anything which needs more attention than minor work
[16:33:11] @ ultra_ambient : The current SCC group can be dismantled as most of them are no longer taking part
[16:33:14] @ quisquilia : the SC / SSC system should be openend up
[16:33:17] @ dmaxx : I think we should abandon the S/SC system, but continue to work in specialised grouos
[16:33:20] @ dmaxx : groups*
[16:33:36] @ ultra_ambient : I think we should start a new group with the people who are still showing interest after all this time
[16:33:37] corne_mo : @dmaxx: setting deadlines makes sure things keep rolling. Even in a completely voluntary organisation deadlines have to be set to keep things going
[16:33:41] @ dmaxx : The current three subcommittees seem good
[16:34:09] @ dmaxx : ultra_ambient, those who are still active will automatically be the group
[16:34:09] @ hmvh : That's all nice and well but we still need a few people as glue to hold the lot together.
[16:34:15] @ ultra_ambient : Those who are still taking part in the project have shown commitment so we should be able to rely on them more
[16:34:17] corne_mo : But is there been any result from the (S)sc
[16:34:37] corne_mo : to continue on hmvh: I would propose a group of 3 people for that
[16:34:40] @ dmaxx : ultra_ambient: true
[16:34:51] @ dmaxx : corne_mo: no results
[16:35:08] @ dmaxx : The SSCs never really got started
[16:35:17] @ ultra_ambient : With the curerent number of regulars contributing to discussions we should be able to form a team to go forward
[16:35:21] corne_mo : What if we would continue with the following structure:
[16:36:00] corne_mo : 3 people forming the daily lead of the community. that means keeping people together and checking if everyone does what he says he'll do and so on
[16:36:22] corne_mo : these three or like moderators on a forum, but than for the complete community
[16:36:35] corne_mo : all tasks can be done by whoever wants to do something.
[16:36:44] @ ultra_ambient : you mean a leader for each sub-group?
[16:37:03] corne_mo : the three are there to make sure things aren't done twice and they can also help to get the right people together
[16:37:05] @ hmvh : "all tasks can be done by whoever wants to do something." Me likes the approach.
[16:37:37] @ dmaxx : Seems good
[16:37:40] corne_mo : @hmvh: the tricky thing is that the organisation can get messy in such a system. That's why I propose a group of 3 daily leaders.
[16:37:46] @ ultra_ambient : I think a good idea is to write a list of jobs for people to do and ask for volenteers to take up each task
[16:38:02] @ dmaxx : Three -daily- leaders? How does that work?
[16:38:06] @ quisquilia : as long as it is kept transparent to minimise redundancies and frustration resulting therefrom
[16:38:08] corne_mo : @ U_A: not specifically for the three groups. I first thought of having 1 leader (call it manager, would be better)
[16:38:08] @ ultra_ambient : But before that perhaps we need a bigger goal
[16:38:14] corne_mo : but than we can get some sort of teo
[16:38:37] @ dmaxx : I don't think there's a teo among us
[16:38:37] @ ultra_ambient : I think we want to avoid a single point of control
[16:38:48] corne_mo : that
[16:39:06] corne_mo : 's why i proposed 3 (2 can get ugly when decisions have to be made)
[16:39:06] @ hmvh : There are pros and cons to having a teo:
[16:39:20] @ quisquilia : corne, it might be necessary to have the leading functions bundled at least initially
[16:39:46] corne_mo : maybe. it is, but there must also be some sort of back-up.
[16:39:51] @ dmaxx : Why would we keep the three subgroups then? It only leads to complications? It seems more logic to remain one big group taking on tasks
[16:40:03] @ hmvh : Pro: He drives the project and has a single-minded idea. In all fairness, Kevin probably started off not much different, except he was owener, submitter, coder, and everything else.
[16:40:22] @ quisquilia : yep, hmvh
[16:40:31] corne_mo : I thought we didn't want one person with one single idea?
[16:40:38] @ hmvh : Cons: The "teo" factor, as we've seen happen.
[16:41:06] @ dmaxx : I'd prefer three
[16:41:07] @ hmvh : No, we don't. We seem to have a collective vision, we all pretty much want the same thing. Other than small detail, I think this group...
[16:41:10] corne_mo : I see this group of 3 people just as managers, they don't make decisions (maybe sometimes, but that can be sorted out later), but just check the progress
[16:41:30] @ hmvh : ...in the chat right now does have a pretty common goal and ideology. That probably applies to most of the other ...
[16:41:33] Masakari : IMO it's not that bad to have the same work done twice or more times --- different approaches and POVs, you know...
[16:41:48] @ hmvh : ...people who log on quasi/regularly.
[16:42:07] Masakari : That means, one big group and a task list should be ok (?)
[16:42:20] @ dmaxx : Y
[16:42:21] corne_mo : @masakari: it's not bad, but people must know when they're doing something double. They then can decide whether they want to cooperate with the other or that they take another task
[16:42:44] @ hmvh : @M: 100% agreed.
[16:42:44] @ dmaxx : Doing things double would be a bit frustrating I think
[16:42:50] corne_mo : one group + task list. Y, but with 3 general managers
[16:42:53] Masakari : What tasks are you speaking of?
[16:42:55] @ dmaxx : I sure wouldn't want it
[16:43:00] @ hmvh : Question: Should we reduce the "SC" then to three people?
[16:43:34] @ ultra_ambient : SHouldn't we work on a bigger goal first
[16:43:35] @ dmaxx : I wouldn't do it "official" any more, just three members with a special status but without closed forum
[16:43:39] corne_mo : Don't know if you should call it the SC anymore. The goals for these three are completely different
[16:43:40] @ quisquilia : yep dmaxx
[16:43:48] @ ultra_ambient : Then break it down into discrete tasks
[16:43:58] corne_mo : btw: why hasn't one of the SSC's came up with such organisational ideas?
[16:44:37] @ hmvh : Whatever you call it... pilot, co-pilot, navigator Smile
[16:44:41] @ dmaxx : Don't know really...
[16:45:00] corne_mo : @U_A: it's important to get things structured first and work from there. This is just an organisational issue and has nothing to do with the ideas around the DB itself
[16:45:00] @ dmaxx : So if I conclude: no more SC / SSC, three members are Managers
[16:45:23] @ dmaxx : Managers have no special forums or something, just a special status
[16:45:24] corne_mo : it was my idea, so I would say: Y
[16:45:35] @ hmvh : @dmaxx: Fine by me. Let's say we agree on who they are and we stick with it. Then what?
[16:45:59] @ dmaxx : Close (lock) the SC/SSC forums, or open them up for everyone
[16:46:03] @ dmaxx : ?
[16:46:17] corne_mo : @hmvh: then we can hopefully get some people to do some things
[16:46:40] corne_mo : and manage/direct it and keep track of the progress easily
[16:46:51] Masakari : Hmm... managers - ok. Still I think it's sufficient when you put your name on the task list + the time you need to do it (a week or whatever)
[16:47:14] @ dmaxx : Not sure either, do we need managers?
[16:47:28] @ dmaxx : We are all ready such a small group
[16:47:29] corne_mo : about the SC and SSC forums. I think it would be good to have the tasklist in a seperate topic where the managers can edit the tasklist
[16:48:09] corne_mo : but we want to attract more people. If we set up an organisation now we don't have to care about it later and the newbies step into a clear system
[16:48:20] @ dmaxx : Ok
[16:48:34] @ ultra_ambient : I gotta put myself to bed now
[16:48:42] @ ultra_ambient : I'll read the discussion in the morning
[16:48:49] @ dmaxx : Ok, bye mate
[16:48:57] corne_mo : ok, have a good nights rest
[16:49:07] @ dmaxx : I'll make sure everything is posted
[16:49:09] Masakari : Good night u_a!
[16:49:12] @ quisquilia : good night, u_a
[16:49:19] @ ultra_ambient : Keep the talkiing going guys and hope you figure some stuff out tonight. All the best.
[16:49:26] @ quisquilia : I'd like to see the conceptual approach to this project mirrored in its infrastructure...
[16:49:55] @ hmvh : Good night.
[16:50:02] @ quisquilia : ... id est in general I think we should keep the SSC structure, just in form of "open groups"
[16:50:35] ultra_ambient is Disconnected on Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 16:50
[16:50:39] @ quisquilia : ... tasklists sound cool to me but should be transparent to minimise overlapping work and frustration
[16:50:57] @ dmaxx : Agreed

[16:51:22] corne_mo is away : back within 5
[16:51:23] @ hmvh : @q: Sounds good to me. Who will decide who to add as part of the "open group"? Also, those three managers would talk to each other to avoid duplicate work.
[16:51:30] @ quisquilia : ... and at least for me it'd be best right now if tasks could also be broken down to "mini jobs"
[16:52:17] @ dmaxx : SSC: open group or loose group? open = request join / loose = everyone can join immediately
[16:52:21] @ quisquilia : ... because I can't see myself doing the "entire" work on e.g. which data and how to transcribe from release
[16:52:39] @ quisquilia : dmaxx: loose
[16:52:57] @ dmaxx : I vote loose too
[16:53:37] @ quisquilia : hmvh: ok, but should be supplemented by public list which shows progress and who tackles whichtask
[16:54:10] @ hmvh : Definitely public, yes.
[16:54:46] @ dmaxx : Yep
[16:54:50] Masakari : Careful guys!!! Seems that you proceed on the assumption that every task will be done by only one person!
[16:55:04] Masakari : I definately would avoid "one-man-armies"!
[16:55:14] @ dmaxx : I don't, I think teams should be able to take on tasks too
[16:55:27] @ dmaxx : More people on one task
[16:55:37] Masakari : ^^ yes, that sounds good
[16:55:38] corne_mo : Yep, it should be possible to do things with multiple persons of course
[16:55:54] @ quisquilia : masakari, "mini jobs" could be tackled by one person...
[16:56:17] corne_mo : Let's make the SSC groups into three open groups where everyone can add his opinion on that particular part if the DB
[16:56:32] @ hmvh : "Team leader", multiple task, dished out to whoever is up to it (one or more people). Responsibility rests with team leader.
[16:56:38] corne_mo : and keep the SC a more closed space where the three managers can post to keep the community informed
[16:56:50] @ quisquilia : ... and coordinated / aligned by the "managers" / collaboration of several "mini jobbers"
[16:57:05] @ hmvh : @corne: Gotcha.
[16:57:14] @ dmaxx : So Managers -> SC
[16:57:24] corne_mo : the "team leader" is then only necessary when multiple persons are working on the same job and if these persons need a team leader
[16:57:32] @ quisquilia : corne, yep
[16:57:47] @ quisquilia : and again: corne, yep
[16:57:56] @ quisquilia : dmaxx, prolly
[16:58:27] corne_mo : next problem, who will be the three managers?
[16:58:56] @ hmvh : PS: This includes regular chat sessions that everyone's welcome to participate in?
[16:58:56] @ dmaxx : any volunteers?
[16:59:10] @ dmaxx : hmvh; sure why not
[16:59:39] corne_mo : what are you pointing to hmvh? to the SC part of the forum?
[16:59:42] @ hmvh : If anyone becomes unruly, dmaxx will have to tighten the reigns.
[16:59:57] @ hmvh : brb
[17:01:05] corne_mo : I wouldn't mind becomming one of the three (later to be named dickheads probably) managers. I think it's the way I can contribute most to the project
[17:01:42] @ dmaxx : Cool, cheers
[17:02:35] @ quisquilia : brb
[17:03:02] corne_mo : guess all are taking a beer now ;-)
[17:03:16] @ dmaxx : Very Happy
[17:03:40] @ dmaxx : If the two other Manager functions don't get filled, I'll volunteer too
[17:04:22] corne_mo : This is something you always see. Everybody wants to help but (almost) nobody volunteers.
[17:04:53] @ quisquilia : I cannot see myself having too much time for the coming 3 to 4 months...
[17:05:16] @ quisquilia : ... therefore I can only join chats and volunteer for mini tasks...
[17:05:27] corne_mo : Would be nice if we could have a 3th manager from the other side of the world. Would be easier with chats and the like that always 1 manager is available.
[17:05:43] corne_mo : corne_mo = Netherlands, dmaxx = Belgium
[17:05:46] @ quisquilia : ... but it'd be dishonest if I tried to help to steer a project of this scope
[17:06:31] @ dmaxx : quis: no problem mate
[17:06:42] @ quisquilia : OT: corne, sorry for you guys yesterday
[17:06:50] corne_mo : @q: to be honest, I don't know if I can handle it, but it is a great challenge
[17:07:08] @ dmaxx : It will be ok
[17:07:35] corne_mo : well, russia was better. simple as that.
[17:07:44] corne_mo : and it's a dutch coach. ;-)
[17:07:44] @ dmaxx : We need a third person, maybe I can make a topic for volunteers?
[17:08:08] corne_mo : maybe hmvh volunteers?
[17:08:14] @ dmaxx : Yeah, too bad, I wish Netherlands had gone to the final
[17:08:37] Masakari : hey, 2 out of 5 is pretty good for now - wait and see what the other SC-members will say
[17:08:37] @ quisquilia : hmvh is at least on the southern hemisphere
[17:08:49] @ dmaxx : Now Germany will almost certainly win Wink
[17:08:59] @ dmaxx : Anyway, back on topic
[17:09:02] @ quisquilia : but who's left of the US / Canadian squad
[17:09:20] @ dmaxx : Thinking...
[17:09:46] @ dmaxx : ultra_ambient? no?
[17:09:47] @ quisquilia : OT: dmaxx, I'm in Berlin and Germany : Turkey on Wednesday will be a blast
[17:10:04] @ quisquilia : or hell
[17:10:20] @ quisquilia : /OT
[17:10:24] @ dmaxx : Everything will be fine. I have put 30 euro before the tournament started on Germany
[17:10:34] corne_mo : OT: Be glad they don't play in turkey. Then you'll be in hell
[17:10:34] @ dmaxx : If they win it, I'll have 122.5 in return
[17:10:54] @ quisquilia : I had bet on the Netherlands :-(
[17:11:04] @ dmaxx : ouch
[17:11:06] @ quisquilia : /OT
[17:11:13] @ dmaxx : /OT
[17:11:16] corne_mo : but OK, maybe on topic again:
[17:11:22] @ dmaxx : hmvh, are you back?
[17:11:36] corne_mo : atm dmaxx and me have volunteered to be 2 of the three needed managers
[17:11:41] @ hmvh : sorry, PC just rebotted on me.
[17:11:56] @ hmvh : ^^booted
[17:12:25] @ dmaxx : No prob
[17:13:16] corne_mo : btw: do we see this as a proposal or as a decision?
[17:13:18] @ quisquilia : if hmvh agrees, fine, else just put a note into the forums that a third person would be welcome
[17:13:22] @ hmvh : deejsasqui would be an excellent choice.
[17:13:37] corne_mo : LOL guys, pointing to each other
[17:13:40] @ quisquilia : hmvh, true
[17:14:26] @ dmaxx : corne_mo, considering we are almost all active members left, I'd say a decision
[17:14:28] @ quisquilia : corne_mo: probably a decision as the clear majority of halfway active SC members are here today
[17:14:53] @ hmvh : I'd only be be (personally) very interested until we can decide on the db structure and the info that we want to capture. I've got lots of other small ideas but that's all just gimmickry.
[17:14:54] corne_mo : well, as I'm not a member of the SC I let you decide on this.
[17:15:18] @ quisquilia : ok, hmvh
[17:15:19] @ dmaxx : SC doesn't exist any more :p
[17:15:30] @ hmvh : After that, someone else is welcome to take over and let me submit my stash in peace Smile
[17:15:33] corne_mo : but I think we need to send an e-mail out to all ex-SC members
[17:15:39] @ quisquilia : do you want to ask deej first?
[17:16:27] @ dmaxx : maybe contact all SC members to tell them about the changes
[17:16:39] @ dmaxx : and ask for a remaining volunteer
[17:16:45] @ hmvh : deej gets my vote, I was (IMHO) going to put deej + dmaxx up for maintaining the docs (I see that as their strengths).
[17:16:45] @ quisquilia : yes, dmaxx
[17:17:16] corne_mo : we certainly need to inform them. Just be be polite
[17:17:41] corne_mo : OK some decisions:
[17:17:42] @ hmvh : Of course, this is a community!
[17:17:49] @ dmaxx : So no more SC, three people with "Manager" status who own "Steering Committee (Main)" (which will be renamed later), Subcommittees and Public open for everyone
[17:17:54] corne_mo : SC's to be dismissed
[17:18:16] @ hmvh : "dissolved" is better.
[17:18:30] corne_mo : good for me too
[17:18:40] @ quisquilia : "Steering Committee (Main)" also open to everyone?
[17:18:47] deejsasqui has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:18
[17:18:59] @ quisquilia : perfect timing, deej
[17:19:01] @ dmaxx : Ok, but that would make "Public" redundant
[17:19:01] @ hmvh : Well, speak of the devil Smile
[17:19:09] @ dmaxx : Maybe merge Main and Public?
[17:19:11] corne_mo : hi deejsasqui. you arrived at the correct time
[17:19:18] @ deejsasqui : really? ok =)
[17:19:25] @ dmaxx : Hello deejsasqui
[17:19:34] @ deejsasqui : I was looking through the archive messages on the chat
[17:19:49] @ deejsasqui : howdy dmaxx, corne_mo, quis, hmvh ..
[17:20:03] corne_mo : no, the SC to be transformed into a place where managers can post. See it as a place for announcements. Discussions on these can be done in other parts
[17:20:14] @ dmaxx : We've made some serious changes, be sure to check them out deejsasqui
[17:20:21] @ hmvh : PS: Pity about Netherlands last night Twisted Evil
[17:20:36] corne_mo : the SSC to be transformed onto development corner or something, open to all
[17:20:40] @ quisquilia : Pity me, hmvh. / OT
[17:20:59] @ quisquilia : corne, yes, sounds reasonable
[17:21:00] @ dmaxx : So how would that conclude?
[17:21:11] corne_mo : the public part maybe to get discussions going on announcements in the SC part
[17:21:36] @ dmaxx : "Steering Committee" -> "Development Zone"
[17:21:38] @ dmaxx : Smile
[17:21:57] @ quisquilia : do we need the community to agree / vote with the decisions by the management?
[17:22:00] @ dmaxx : "Main" -> "Managment" (closed?°
[17:22:11] @ dmaxx : There's not much community left..
[17:22:30] corne_mo : @q: the management doesn't make decisions on it's own.
[17:22:37] @ dmaxx : "Subcommittees" remains (open)
[17:22:53] @ dmaxx : "Public" remains too
[17:22:54] corne_mo : they're there to keep the general overview and to keep things going
[17:23:07] @ quisquilia : ok, then
[17:23:09] corne_mo : of course they can initiate discussions and developments
[17:23:12] @ hmvh : @dmaxx: In all fairness, I think with the little activity at the moment, we could (almost) open up everything to anyone.
[17:23:25] @ dmaxx : True
[17:23:32] @ quisquilia : agree w/ hmvh
[17:23:35] @ dmaxx : The Managment won't be so big it needs it's own forum
[17:23:49] @ dmaxx : I'll make sure they can make stickies
[17:23:53] corne_mo : @dmaxx: Y. @hmvh: I want to keep one thing closed so we can have 1 place just for announcements
[17:23:53] Masakari has been disconnected the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:23 (session timeout)
[17:24:04] @ quisquilia : very good
[17:24:06] @ hmvh : The proverbial carrot at the end of the stick would be that those actively involved in the dev.zone will have their names listed as active contributors / founding fathers of the site.
[17:24:10] Masakari has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:24
[17:24:11] @ deejsasqui : and if there are only 3 "managers" it'll be easy enough to keep track of their discussions
[17:24:12] corne_mo : that way you'll have the discussions in there specific parts
[17:24:12] @ dmaxx : Anouncements could be stickied
[17:24:28] corne_mo : and locked?
[17:24:28] @ deejsasqui : no need to lock people out and have a parallel forum to have public discussions
[17:24:36] @ dmaxx : No lock needed IMO
[17:24:39] @ hmvh : @dmaxx: Makes sense, yes.
[17:24:52] corne_mo : I'm thinking about the publication of the timeline for example
[17:25:09] @ dmaxx : Could also be stickied, important
[17:25:33] corne_mo : a lot of discussion on the items on that line can be added in that topic, but should be go in the specific topics. So the timeline would be locked imo.
[17:25:36] @ quisquilia : good, good, as I soon have to log out...
[17:26:14] @ quisquilia : ... I'd just like to get an idea about the relation between (mini) tasks and general timeline / guidelines...
[17:26:18] @ dmaxx : Maybe it's best to lock and archive the SC forum and leave that behind
[17:26:27] @ dmaxx : And start a new one "Development Zone"
[17:26:35] @ dmaxx : Public
[17:26:37] @ deejsasqui : dmaxx: agree on locking old SC stuff
[17:26:48] @ deejsasqui : I think we have enough forums
[17:27:02] @ quisquilia : yep
[17:27:05] corne_mo : would be a good idea indeed. Locking all the current (S)SC stuff and making a development zone.
[17:27:05] @ deejsasqui : If nothing else, we can gather thoughts in the Other forum
[17:27:26] @ deejsasqui : if there is one development zone, what are the uses of the other forums?
[17:27:46] @ dmaxx : Discussing the tasks?
[17:27:47] corne_mo : Forums will have to be arranged as we go I think. As soon as there is some sort of DB we need a completly different forum altogether
[17:28:02] @ dmaxx : corne_mo: absolutely, but that's for later on
[17:28:08] @ hmvh : Good. So it be. Set up the dev.zone and what have you, I'll trust dmaxx's judgement there but: WHAT NEXT? (I'm starting to sound as impatient as Stormbringer... )
[17:28:08] @ quisquilia : agree w/ deej, the advantage of all the forums is they mirror the different development tasks
[17:28:25] @ dmaxx : "Development" could be permanent by the way
[17:28:37] @ hmvh : Development IS permanent.
[17:28:51] @ deejsasqui : ok - I like that - a permenent Dev forum, vs all the fragment forums we have now
[17:28:54] corne_mo : ^I hope so
[17:29:01] @ quisquilia : ok, have to log out now, sorry
[17:29:11] corne_mo : the dev forum has to be subdivided though.
[17:29:13] @ deejsasqui : bye quis
[17:29:18] corne_mo : ok q; Thanks for joining
[17:29:19] Masakari : bye
[17:29:19] @ dmaxx : Ok, bye quisquilla
[17:29:26] @ deejsasqui : corne: why/how?
[17:29:43] @ dmaxx : I declare this the last SC chat session, it will also the last topic in the SC department
[17:29:52] @ hmvh : OK, Q, catch ya later.
[17:29:52] @ dmaxx : I think everyone will agree with that
[17:30:03] @ deejsasqui : I agree

[17:30:11] @ dmaxx : In what should Dev be subdivided?
[17:30:19] @ deejsasqui : we will chat more, but under a different title
[17:30:34] @ dmaxx : Yep
[17:30:48] @ deejsasqui : side question: was Masakari talking earlier, or has he been a ghost the whole time?
[17:30:49] corne_mo : I'm thinking atm.
[17:31:02] @ hmvh : Can we keep that to the forum or MUST that be decided now?
[17:31:08] corne_mo : if we get ride of the complete current system
[17:31:13] @ dmaxx : M has talked before
[17:31:17] corne_mo : we need an "about" part
[17:31:24] @ deejsasqui : dmaxx: ok
[17:31:51] @ dmaxx : Can't we just replace "SC" by "DevZ"
[17:31:55] corne_mo : we need a place where management announce
[17:32:02] @ dmaxx : And leave all others to discuss the tasks?
[17:32:20] corne_mo : and imo we need the different parts now under general as most of them are development
[17:32:21] quisquilia is Disconnected on Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:32
[17:32:24] @ dmaxx : And because of the managment size (3 ppl), those anouncements could be stickied
[17:32:33] @ deejsasqui : we already have an About forum - it's the only one you can see when you're not logged in
[17:33:18] @ deejsasqui : I agree the management updates / summaries should be in one place, or gathered in one place, and kept in their respective forums.
[17:33:33] corne_mo : a generic dev zone where all announcements about dev are made/tracked
[17:34:08] corne_mo : and all current general forums with the different parts for the devzone
[17:34:21] corne_mo : @dmaxx: can you easily switch some things around?
[17:34:36] @ dmaxx : Sure
[17:34:45] @ deejsasqui : maybe we have a locked, sticky Management Summaries, like some of the threads at Discogs.
[17:35:08] corne_mo : OK guys, I think we need to decide now about the forum part
[17:35:12] @ dmaxx : Seperate forum = Ok, locked is not needed imo
[17:35:17] @ deejsasqui : at this moment, I don't think we'll have enough activity to really need a whole News forum (though it would be a clean place to keep news posts)
[17:35:39] @ deejsasqui : and because our discussions are open, there'll be no surprise news, like there is at Discogs
[17:35:44] corne_mo : we can always lock the topic afterwards if something that should be discussed elsewhere is discussed in the announcement topic
[17:35:47] @ dmaxx : Lol, true
[17:36:19] @ deejsasqui : corne: my thoughts exactly =)
[17:37:01] @ deejsasqui : because there are so many different threads, having some summary posts in one place could make it easier for those with less time to keep up with things
[17:37:08] @ dmaxx : I'll make a opic in which we can post our ideas for the new structure, OK?
[17:37:15] @ deejsasqui : they could index the progress of the forums
[17:37:21] @ deejsasqui : ok
[17:37:30] corne_mo : I agree and it will be easier for management and all others to keep a generic overview
[17:37:38] @ deejsasqui : yeah - we shouldn't start decreeing things from our super-secret chat discussion =)
[17:38:19] corne_mo : @dmaxx: i think it's best to put a proposal in that topic otherwise it will be a long discussion and we need this new structure to keep things rolling
[17:39:14] @ dmaxx : https://discogs.actieforum.com/11-other-f15/new-structure-discussion-t285.htm#5955
[17:39:40] @ dmaxx : Just a basic structure
[17:39:54] corne_mo : So we now have a new organisational structure and a new proposal for the forums
[17:40:28] corne_mo : What else can be initiated atm?
[17:41:00] @ deejsasqui : should we set up a vote to disolve the SC?
[17:41:05] corne_mo : I'm thinking of contacting Lazlo to get the legal issues part rolling.
[17:41:20] @ deejsasqui : or can we just assume it didn't work as planned, because we didn't get nearly enough done?
[17:41:29] corne_mo : and asking masakari if he wants to develop some other page layouts
[17:41:35] @ deejsasqui : how would you contact Lazlo - he's been MIA for a good long whie, right?
[17:41:40] @ deejsasqui : *while
[17:41:44] @ dmaxx : deejsasqui: let the SC vote to dismantle themselves? Not sure because many of them are no longer active
[17:42:15] @ dmaxx : I think we have to admit the SC and especially the SSC structure never really was a success
[17:42:23] corne_mo : @deej: see above. majority of SC is here and agree. So is decided already andactually was in yesterdays chat too
[17:43:19] @ hmvh : What remains of the SC is present here and now, it seems.
[17:43:33] corne_mo : lazlo has an e-mail adres on his website :-)
[17:43:47] @ deejsasqui : ok on both counts =)
[17:44:21] @ dmaxx : https://discogs.actieforum.com/11-other-f15/new-structure-discussion-t285.htm#5955
[17:44:21] Masakari has been disconnected the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:44 (session timeout)
[17:44:29] @ dmaxx : Is that ok?
[17:44:32] Masakari has joined the chat the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 17:44
[17:44:51] corne_mo : @masakari: are you willing to make some more page layouts?
[17:46:10] Masakari : @corne: about the layout -- initially I wanted to initiate that also other users make some drafts (didn't work, as you know :-). I think it's best to have layouts from _different_ people, so we can choose one...
[17:46:26] @ hmvh : Looks fine.
[17:46:56] corne_mo : @Masakari: Yes, but we need some people to get things going, and as you've noticed you got a lot of responce on your designs.
[17:47:20] @ dmaxx : Yeah those where good
[17:47:31] corne_mo : Most people first need to see something before they know what they want themselves. I'm not saying your designs will be the final ones.
[17:48:09] corne_mo : But I think you have done some good contributions with your designs so far
[17:48:46] Masakari : I have some ideas, but I'm somewhat deadlocked on the style - the most important thing is input -- not only what you want to see, but also on the arrangement, colors used etc.
[17:48:56] @ deejsasqui : I wanted to muck around with some graphics, too, but I haven't. I'll try to get something up this week, to provide a constrast to Masakari's designs
[17:49:31] @ dmaxx : Great
[17:49:34] corne_mo : @masakari, personally I don't think colours are the most important atm. We can simply change them later if we use style sheets
[17:50:09] corne_mo : but general layouts are important and it represents what we want to see. Just put your own thoughts on paper and we'll got a lot of great ideas I'm sure
[17:50:16] @ dmaxx : We can even let users pick them Smile
[17:50:57] @ hmvh : ...now what would be more democratic than that?!
[17:51:01] Masakari : I think I could play around with psychonauseas' and deej's tab-layout
[17:51:02] @ dmaxx : I suggest to keep the SC forums three more days open to let other users reply on the SC chat session topic
[17:51:49] corne_mo : Please don't use user defined colours. It's not kindergarten is it?
[17:51:56] corne_mo : @dmaxx: OK for me.
[17:52:33] Masakari : @ deej: yeah, another layout would be great!
[17:53:18] corne_mo : and after these three days incorporate the new structure. Then we can also add a first announcement to find a 3th manager
[17:53:27] corne_mo : or is deejsasqui interested?
[17:53:28] @ deejsasqui : I've had some ideas in my head, but I'm not sure how well they'd all fit
[17:53:32] @ dmaxx : Ok
[17:53:47] @ deejsasqui : who are all the possible managers?
[17:53:59] @ deejsasqui : and should we have another vote to choose them?
[17:54:03] corne_mo : for now dmaxx and I have volunteered
[17:54:37] @ deejsasqui : gotcha - yeah, I'd like to be part of the initial management
[17:55:03] @ deejsasqui : and we can state we aren't securing these positions for the life of DDb, but as an initial way of keeping things focused
[17:55:28] @ dmaxx : Very good
[17:55:35] @ dmaxx : Very Happy
[17:55:38] corne_mo : indeed. When things are up and running we can always have elections for new managers
[17:55:45] @ deejsasqui : re: SC shut-down - could we let it end on July 5? That'll be the planned end of the SC anyway
[17:55:57] @ dmaxx : ^ Good remark
[17:56:05] @ dmaxx : 5/6 is fine
[17:56:10] @ dmaxx : 5/7*
[17:56:21] corne_mo : I think it's too far ahead if we want to incorporate the new forum structure
[17:56:40] @ dmaxx : All changes will be made at 5/7
[17:56:40] corne_mo : cause as long as the SC is there we can't close any SC related topics
[17:57:01] corne_mo : but it gives us some more time to get everything implemented.
[17:57:03] @ hmvh : 5/7 makes sense... gives people chance to respond or complain.
[17:57:34] @ hmvh : Besides, whether it's 5/7 or yesterday: What's the nest step?
[17:57:42] @ hmvh : ^^next
[17:57:57] @ dmaxx : The tasklist
[17:58:08] @ dmaxx : And searching ppl who volunteer for tasks
[17:58:28] corne_mo : on the tasklist so far:
[17:58:38] corne_mo : - changing forum on 5/7 (dmaxx)
[17:58:55] @ corne_mo : - page layout ideas (Masakari and deejsasqui)
[17:59:13] @ corne_mo : can we put a period for that after which we can see some first results?
[17:59:34] @ dmaxx : forum change end: 5/7
[18:00:34] @ corne_mo : deej and masakari: any idea how long it will take you to get some first sketches? Two weeks, 4 weeks?
[18:00:55] Masakari : minus 2 1/2 months
[18:00:59] @ deejsasqui : if I have some quiet time today, I can get one or two done
[18:01:25] @ corne_mo : so let's say we must have some first sketches within 2 weeks
[18:02:04] @ corne_mo : I'll contact lazlo today or tomorrow and hope he will contribute some on the legal part. I'll past the progress as soon as possible and at least before the end of next week
[18:02:10] @ deejsasqui : re: forums - we can make the new forums now, and shift our discussions there and in other forums.
[18:02:31] @ dmaxx : I think pano could also be of great help on the financial and legal part
[18:02:43] @ corne_mo : I'll contact him too
[18:02:59] @ dmaxx : deej: creating the "Managment Zone"?
[18:03:11] @ dmaxx : Fine for me
[18:03:35] @ corne_mo : I think we can, we must also publish a good explanation of the organisational changes made
[18:03:55] @ dmaxx : Certainly
[18:03:59] @ deejsasqui : yeah - it's not a move that will shape DDB, it's just a way to re-focus discussions
[18:04:01] @ dmaxx : I'll notify the SC members later
[18:04:10] @ deejsasqui : corne: agreed
[18:04:34] @ deejsasqui : dmaxx: maybe a post in the main SC forum, and then PM each member who isn't already active?
[18:04:42] @ corne_mo : and we can start with some timeline work already. All mini-tasks have to be gathered somewhere. And a link to the specific topic can be made in that timeline overview
[18:04:59] @ dmaxx : devzone created
[18:05:12] @ dmaxx : deej: ok
[18:06:00] @ corne_mo : create the announcement part too
[18:06:05] @ corne_mo : we can already use it
[18:06:55] @ corne_mo : as for tasks. I think deejsasqui will continue searching for coders?
[18:09:10] @ deejsasqui : yeah
[18:09:30] @ deejsasqui : that's my priority for today
[18:09:56] @ dmaxx : Managers are now granted moderation rights in the chatbox
[18:10:12] @ dmaxx : I'll give you the status on 5/7
[18:10:23] @ dmaxx : And access to the "News" subforum
[18:11:13] @ corne_mo : you mean the status for in the forums?
[18:11:25] @ corne_mo : That's OK. As the SC must have it until 5/7
[18:12:04] Masakari : OT - @dmaxx: do you happen to know if there's a space-limit for the servimg.com page (where I uploaded my pics)?
[18:12:29] @ dmaxx : conre_mo: yep, the title under your nickname so ppl can see it
[18:12:49] @ deejsasqui : bbl - breakfast time
[18:12:55] @ dmaxx : I'll check it out, just a moment
[18:13:02] @ dmaxx : deej: enjoy
[18:13:08] deejsasqui is Disconnected on Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 18:13
[18:13:10] @ corne_mo : breakfast? I'm all for diner atm
[18:13:34] @ corne_mo : maybe these images can be hosted on the initial server which is set up for DDB?
[18:13:43] @ corne_mo : if that is stil available that is
[18:16:40] @ dmaxx : Masakari: can't tell you if there's a limit
[18:16:48] @ dmaxx : Do you know imageshack.us?
[18:17:13] @ dmaxx : Otherwise you can always give them to me and I'll place them on my webspace (the same space which hosts the DDB banner)
[18:17:46] @ dmaxx : It's lunchtime here too, I will be back soon
[18:17:46] @ corne_mo : I also have some webspace available. So hosting may not be the problem
[18:18:46] Masakari : I know imageshack, but I'm a newb when it comes to these things. Will contact you when there's a problem with the space - thanks, dmaxx, corne_mo!
[18:18:55] @ corne_mo : @dmaxx: can you make a post in the SC forum about the changes we've discussed today, and a first announcing post in the dev zone news explaining the new system and what we want
[18:19:33] @ corne_mo : sorry to let you do it, but you're the only one who can post there atm
[18:24:16] Masakari : Ok folks, have to go. Bye :-)
[18:24:44] @ corne_mo : bye
[18:24:54] Masakari is Disconnected on Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 18:24
[18:25:19] @ corne_mo : I think we should end this chat session now.
[18:25:26] @ corne_mo : We have some work to do:
[18:25:40] @ corne_mo : - dmaxx: reorg the forums and publish some messages about todays decisions
[18:25:56] @ corne_mo : - deej & masa: design some layouts (2 weeks)
[18:26:08] @ corne_mo : corne_mo: contact pano and lazlo about legal stuff
[18:26:23] @ corne_mo : - and I'll also try to make some sort of organisational plan
[18:27:04] @ corne_mo : things that have to be discussed later:
[18:27:11] @ corne_mo : - wiki reorganisation
[18:27:17] @ corne_mo : - initial DB??
[18:27:50] @ corne_mo : any other stuff that should be on the agenda for next times chat? And will we have some sort of regular chat where everyone can interrupt?
[18:30:59] hmvh : Might be good to have another chat as soon as next week Saturday.
[18:33:01] hmvh is Disconnected on Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 18:33
[18:33:07] dmaxx has been disconnected the Sun 22 Jun 2008 - 18:33 (session timeout)
[18:33:57] @ corne_mo : Yep, next saturday at 16:00 CET